RIVER CAMPING 101- Ohhhhhhhhh Cr. . .

[okieboater]

For a river like the lower buffalo and all wild and scenic heavy use rivers, I believe a carry out poop system should be used for all overnight trips.

We can argue pro and con statements. And, many will make a lot of sense.

But using a carry out poop system is the right thing to do to protect the river we all love.

[Richard]

For all the right reasons Yall are right. Particularly as a club we need to support carry out. And we can either lead the way as we should or eventually be drug into it with a tarnished reputation. And from what I have read here and elsewhere, long term, the ECO-SAFE system is the way to go for groups.

We need to develop a list of dump stations for the Buffalo.

I am still looking for a less expensive, practical alternative to the ECO-SAFE. I don't thing the PETT is it.

See, there is hope for us that suffer from Cognitive Dissonance.

[Trismegistus]

What would really be cool would an on-site, self-contained, composting toilet like the Biolet. Something that reduces human waste to a nutrient rich, hygienically safe “humus” that can be recycled back to nature in a safe way w/out polluting the environment. No waste, just useable end-products. Now that would really be cool.

Unfortunately I don't know if there is one light enough to haul or which can serve a capacity crowd.

[okieboater]

Richard, I am a big fan of the Eco Safe system. It is costly, but for those of us that are not as competent with making things as we wish to be - Eco Safe is a good way to go. It is well made. I was concerned about how long the plastic would last. I called Eco Safe and the guy in charge told me that as long as I used only bio degradable treatments and flushed out the system well and stayed away from the heavy duty chemicals, he thought the plastic would last at least decades. My experience is, if the river ranger knows you have a Eco Safe, they are not going to ask more questions or start looking at your system - makes for a easier check out at the put in. I think Eco Safe helps keep the smells down while in transit. Even tho the Eco Safe system's clean out is somewhat complicated, I like the idea that I get some protection from flying poo as I do the clean out process - especially at RV dump sites with the smaller dump hole. I like the idea that the poop is contained in it's own container plus having the backup of the rocket boxes. Having said that, remember I usually over engineer just about anything.

I know Walter Felton and Roger Head have poop systems made out of just the rocket boxes. I have used both these guys systems and they work. If a person wanted a workable carry out poop system at a pretty low price, these designs are the way to go in my opinion.

On rivers like the Lower Buffalo, I believe some sort of carry out poo system is the way to go. Lots of ways to accomplish this. Rocket box based systems seem to me to be a good basic method for canoe or raft over night trips on rivers like the Lower Buffalo.

[RIORESIDENT]

not a direct quote, but a "washable, lockable, re-usable system", seems to be the standard for most western river trips. thinking out-loud too, but what about the smaller ammo cans, not sure what they are actually called, but i use them for extra frame parts, sunscreen/aloe, misc. gear that I want handy. these boxes have the exact same features as the larger ammo cans, just smaller. might be just the ticket for canoe trips. I have seen small tripod like chairs with a hole cut in them to accomodate, well.for lack of better words, your bottom.
I would imagine the whole system would rule, and be light too.

They for sure wouldn't be as easy to clean as an eco-safe, but would fit the bill as far as space goes.

Heck, call eco-safe, and tell em to make em. I'll take a free one for my services.......

Rio~

[Bob Stout]

I would like to see some discussion concerning Michael's post (bottom of page 6) I personally think the ACC should take the lead in this matter, especially for over-night trips utilizing gravel/sand bars as camp sites.

Day trippers are another verson of the same problem, because of their numbers, they may provide most of the wast. Some probably could care less about their impact on the river.

[DeBo]

A group of paddlers had a deep discussion on this matter last night at the party. What impression does a western river tripper have when they come to Arkansas? To float a wild and scenic Federal protected river. Then find crap piles everywhere?

Should the club lobby to have the rules changed to carry out only?
Your thoughts?

Yes

[Roger]

Richard, I am a big fan of the Eco Safe system. It is costly, but for those of us that are not as competent with making things as we wish to be - Eco Safe is a good way to go. It is well made. I was concerned about how long the plastic would last. I called Eco Safe and the guy in charge told me that as long as I used only bio degradable treatments and flushed out the system well and stayed away from the heavy duty chemicals, he thought the plastic would last at least decades. My experience is, if the river ranger knows you have a Eco Safe, they are not going to ask more questions or start looking at your system - makes for a easier check out at the put in. I think Eco Safe helps keep the smells down while in transit. Even tho the Eco Safe system's clean out is somewhat complicated, I like the idea that I get some protection from flying poo as I do the clean out process - especially at RV dump sites with the smaller dump hole. I like the idea that the poop is contained in it's own container plus having the backup of the rocket boxes. Having said that, remember I usually over engineer just about anything.

I know Walter Felton and Roger Head have poop systems made out of just the rocket boxes. I have used both these guys systems and they work. If a person wanted a workable carry out poop system at a pretty low price, these designs are the way to go in my opinion.

On rivers like the Lower Buffalo, I believe some sort of carry out poo system is the way to go. Lots of ways to accomplish this. Rocket box based systems seem to me to be a good basic method for canoe or raft over night trips on rivers like the Lower Buffalo.

ONly thing with that system is one must have a cleaning station to handle the waste properly-appropriate disposal.

Idea? Everyone collect their own and take it home for flushing? :roll:

Gonna have to bring the NPS in on this discussion, I would think.

Heck of a long thread about sheat.

[Richard]

Idea? Everyone collect their own and take it home for flushing?

And this is how to do it.
http://www.wetdawg.com/pages/touring/ka ... dex_sk.php

[Trismegistus]

"Everyone collect their own and take it home for flushing?"

Seems like a shame to go through all this and then turn around and contaminate a bunch of water anyway -- I never could figure out why we think it is such a great idea to contaminate millions of gallons of water every year with our crap -- and then spend millions of dollars to get the crap back out of our water thereafter -- you'd think we'd already have made the "paradigm shift" to something more environmentally sound.

Thus if we collect it all -- why not compost, why not incinerate, why not mix and trench, why not...?

[Richard]

Because we are sheep. Look at how long it took to make a car not look like a carriage. We also are very short sighted. And water is a very cheap conveyor system. And flushing is so easy and convenient. Effortless.

[okieboater]

Back when most of us lived on a farm, there were lots of ways to handle poop - it was not a big deal. Both human (ie outhouse) or manure from farm animals IE growing up when the chicken raising started in N. GA - putting that kind of chicken poop on the red dirt worn out farms and planting Kentucky 31 Fescue grass, turned the area from a disaster to pasture and farm land second to none - till they started growing houses there for displaced Atlanta folks! Now it's mostly houses and not many farms left.

Now as a nation, almost all of us live either on a small lot, apartment or as I learned during a 6 month's stint living in Boston MA - stacked one on top of each other, surrounded by concrete and packed nose to tail like cattle in a farm trailer.

I think our nation (as well as most) is going to have to go to some sort of poo processing process in a environmentally sound factory setting.

Watching on the Science Channel, I see some projects like this going on out west in CA.

Dumping your poop in the river, only works for those who live at the top of the river. Look at New Orleans. I love to go to N.O. and eat cajun food. But the water down there needs a lot of processing to make it drinkable cause it has been used as a "conveyor belt" many times from MN to LA.

It's gonna take a major concentrated effort to come up with a way to process the poop from our cities in a environmentally sound method.

Richard is right. We are a nation of sheep. However, Sheep will follow the right kind of leader. What we need is a good leader - not the type of politician I see running for leadership roles currently! But, there has to be someone out there to lead the sheep to good pasture, not the slaughter house.
PS - I do not think it is Al Gore, but there has to be someone who can do the job out there.

[scott yarbrough]

Please lead by example, not litigation. If anybody thinks that the Buffalo needs to be a groover river please go ahead and start early. Don't wait on legislation to be handed down. Back up your well intentions by actions. I for one will have more respect for anybody that actually carries a groover down the river on their own accord to set a good example. Than I ever would somebody that just wants it to be a law, and then they will carry down a groover only after everybody else has to do it too. There is a big difference. I got 28 days on the Buffalo so far this year, and haven't stepped in it yet.

[Richard]

I think Scott has it right on two accounts.

!. Lead by example, not legislation. We don't need to be telling someone to do what we won't do ourselves.
2. The Buffalo is not there yet in terms of being an environmental hazard. I have encountered other's waste but it has be rare. The worst case for me was last May when I picked up a dirty diaper and the bag I put it in broke and it sat there in front of me in the canoe until I got off the river.

So what do we do? I emailed Faron Usrey, biologist for the Buffalo River with several questions and he is going to get back with me. In the meantime I am willing to carry out. We can do some experimenting with that. Between Roger, Dave and Bob, we should have at least one ECO-SAFE system on each trip. Any solo trips I do I am going to carry out as well. I will try the "Wrap" system for starters if the "hold it till I'm home" system doesn't work.

[Bob Stout]

I'm in total agreement with the last two post. There are several of us that should/will make sure that an ECO Safe system will accompany us when-ever we ply the Buffalo.