I need to come up with a better system. I will let these videos introduce the topic. But I want your input . . . er . . . you know what I mean.
http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=4x1UjDLFB ... re=related
http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=wxoKJA6DY ... re=related
RIVER CAMPING 101- Ohhhhhhhhh Cr. . .
RIVER CAMPING 101- Ohhhhhhhhh Cr. . .
Last edited by Richard on Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:41 pm, edited 6 times in total.
We are all afflicted with Cognitive Dissonance. The greater our religious, social, financial or political affiliation, the greater the affliction. We hear what we want to hear. We believe what we want to believe. Truth becomes irrelevant.
remind me not to go into your portable pooh tent
Roger, that is exactly why I am asking for ideas. I need help . . .Obvious to most, any time you are on the river overnight you need to plan for taking care of needs when mother nature calls. The simplest method is to somehow hold it till you get off the river. Might work sometimes but not very practical most times. If you go on the western rivers you have a "groover" with you and everyone uses that. On the Buffalo I have never used a groover and have never developed a good system. Years ago I bought a camping potty chair at a garage sale. I have carried it with me and it works but also has some downsides. It has chair style legs that sink into the sand, dirt or gravel. . . not good. But it still beats squating.
On the Ozark Society floats, an area up in the woods is located and a shovel is placed at the point where you leave the gravel bar and enter the woods. If it is gone you know someone is taking care of their business and you wait for it to return. Works well except it requires crawling up a river bank which can lead to some other problems.
In search for a better way, one in which it is not necessary to find yourself in tick and chigger country I bought the "portable pooh tent" That provided the privacy. The potty chair was better than squatting . . . until the legs sank into the gravel. Also, the gravel is not the best place to leave what results when we answer nature's call.
Not wanting to go to the expense of buying a groover and not wanting to deal with carrying one downriver, I am looking for better alternatives. Here is the criteria.
1. It must be nearly like being at home.
A. Thus the "portable pooh tent" (Roger I am going to fix the leaking roof problem)
B. The chair does not work because it sinks into the gravel.
2. Disposal must be environmentally friendly and convienient. Not on the gravel bar and not on the person doing the disposing.
3. Doesn't require transporting a "dirty" system or item downriver.
Here is a possible solution:
I have a Luggable Loo seat. I also have a 5 gallon bucket. That would take care of #1B and #3. I need help in coming up with the best answer for #2. uh . . . no pun intended but the real #2 is the essence of the problem.
Any help would be much appreciated
We are all afflicted with Cognitive Dissonance. The greater our religious, social, financial or political affiliation, the greater the affliction. We hear what we want to hear. We believe what we want to believe. Truth becomes irrelevant.
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okieboater
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- Posts: 1944
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:21 pm
- Name: David L. Reid
- Location: Jenks, Oklahoma
The Eco Safe Unit carried inside a surplus military "rocket box" is the system I see used by most private boaters out west.
These units are next to impossible to tear up when housed inside a rocket box. Given some care, they might work outside the rocket box, I just always seen them used inside a rocket box.
Here is the URL for the manufacturer up in Wichita, KS.
http://www.eco-safe.net/
These units are next to impossible to tear up when housed inside a rocket box. Given some care, they might work outside the rocket box, I just always seen them used inside a rocket box.
Here is the URL for the manufacturer up in Wichita, KS.
http://www.eco-safe.net/
Okieboater AKA Dave Reid
We are not sure when childhood ends and adulthood begins.
We are sure that when retirement begins, childhood restarts
We are not sure when childhood ends and adulthood begins.
We are sure that when retirement begins, childhood restarts
I want to carry a clean, empty container downriver. . .
leaving behind the stuff to decompose in an environmentally friendly way.
Is that possible?
leaving behind the stuff to decompose in an environmentally friendly way.
Is that possible?
We are all afflicted with Cognitive Dissonance. The greater our religious, social, financial or political affiliation, the greater the affliction. We hear what we want to hear. We believe what we want to believe. Truth becomes irrelevant.
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Arthur Bowie
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- Posts: 47
- Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:48 am
- Name: Arthur Bowie
- Location: Bentonville, Arkansas
I agree with Arthur. Plus I would have it setup to where paper could be burned ahead of time, while still in the Poop tent. because animals will dig the paper out and that creates an unsightly mess.
In addition to the 5 gal bucket of waste I could carry some extra water to rinse it before taking the bucket back to the river. I guess I am wanting to figure out a no muss no fuss way to end up with a clean bucket at the end of the day.
In addition to the 5 gal bucket of waste I could carry some extra water to rinse it before taking the bucket back to the river. I guess I am wanting to figure out a no muss no fuss way to end up with a clean bucket at the end of the day.
We are all afflicted with Cognitive Dissonance. The greater our religious, social, financial or political affiliation, the greater the affliction. We hear what we want to hear. We believe what we want to believe. Truth becomes irrelevant.
Richard, might consider a small amount of lime in a plastic bottle to add to your buried "treasure" to help speed along and freshen it! MIght even get the little "treasure" hunters away.
I am I plus my surroundings and if I do not preserve the latter, I do not preserve myself. Jose Ortega Y Gasset
The earth is like a spaceship that didn't come with an operating manual.
Buckminster Fuller
The earth is like a spaceship that didn't come with an operating manual.
Buckminster Fuller
Leave no trace guide lines:
Human Waste: Proper disposal of human waste is important to avoid pollution of water sources, avoid the negative implications of someone else finding it, minimize the possibility of spreading disease, and maximize the rate of decomposition.
In most locations, burying human feces in the correct manner is the most effective method to meet these criteria. Solid human waste must be packed out from some places, such as narrow river canyons. Land management agencies can advise you of specific rules for the area you plan to visit.
Contrary to popular opinion, research indicates that burial of feces actually slows decomposition (at least in the Rocky Mountains). Pathogens have been discovered to survive for a year or more when buried. However, in light of the other problems associated with feces, it is still generally best to bury it. The slow decomposition rate causes the need to choose the correct location, far from water, campsites, and other frequently used places.
Catholes: Catholes are the most widely accepted method of waste disposal. Locate catholes at least 200 feet (about 70 adult steps) from water, trails and camp. Select an inconspicuous site where other people will be unlikely to walk or camp. With a small garden trowel, dig a hole 6-8 inches deep and 4-6 inches in diameter. The cathole should be covered and disguised with natural materials when finished. If camping in the area for more than one night, or if camping with a large group, cathole sites should be widely dispersed.
Perhaps the most widely accepted method of backcountry human waste disposal is the cathole. The advantages are:
they are easy to dig in most areas.
they are easy to disguise after use.
they are private.
they disperse the waste rather than concentrate it (which enhances decomposition).
it is usually easy to select an out of the way location where you can be certain no one is going to casually encounter the cathole.
Selecting a Cathole Site:
Select a cathole site far from water sources, 200 feet (approximately 70 adult paces) is the recommended range.
Select an inconspicuous site untraveled by people. Examples of cathole sites include thick undergrowth, near downed timber, or on gentle hillsides.
If camping with a group or if camping in the same place for more than one night, disperse the catholes over a wide area; don t go to the same place twice.
Try to find a site with deep organic soil. This organic ma al contains organisms which will help de pose the feces. (Organic soil is usually dark and rich in color.) Refer to the jars used to demonstrate decomposition. The desert does not have as much organic soil as a forested area. (See number 2 under Digging a Cathole below.)
If possible, locate your cathole where it will receive maximum sunlight. The heat from the sun will aid decomposition.
Choose an elevated site where water would not normally during runoff or rain storms. The idea here is to keep the feces out of water. Over time, the decomposing feces will percolate into the soil before reaching water sources.
Digging a Cathole:
A small garden trowel is the perfect tool for digging a cathole.
Dig the hole 6-8 inches deep (about the length of the trowel blade) and 4-6 inches in diameter. In a hot desert, human waste does not biodegrade easily because there is little organic soil to help break it down. In the desert, the cathole should be only 4-6 inches deep. This will allow the heat and sun to hasten the decay process.
When finished, the cathole should be filled with the original dirt and disguised with native materials.
Catholes in Arid Lands: A cathole is the most widely accepted means of waste disposal in arid lands. Locate catholes at least 200 feet (about 70 adult steps) from water, trails, and camp. Avoid areas where water visibly flows, such as sandy washes, even if they are dry at the moment. Select a site that will maximize exposure to the sun in order to aid decomposition. Because the sun s heat will penetrate desert soils several inches, it can eventually kill pathogens if the feces are buried properly. South-facing slopes and ridge tops will have more exposure to sun and heat than other areas.
Latrines: Though catholes are recommended for most situations, there are times when latrines may be more applicable, such as when camping with young children or if staying in one camp for longer than a few nights. Use similar criteria for selecting a latrine location as those used to locate a cathole. Since this higher concentration of feces will decompose very slowly, location is especially important. A good way to speed decomposition and diminish odors is to toss in a handful of soil after each use. Ask your land manager about latrine-building techniques.
Toilet Paper: Use toilet paper sparingly and use only plain, white, non-perfumed brands. Toilet paper must be disposed of properly! It should either be thoroughly buried in a cathole or placed in plastic bags and packed out. Natural toilet paper has been used by many campers for years. When done correctly, this method is as sanitary as regular toilet paper, but without the impact problems. Popular types of natural toilet paper include stones, vegetation and snow. Obviously, some experimentation is necessary to make this practice work for you, but it is worth a try! Burning toilet paper in a cathole is not generally recommended.
Toilet Paper in Arid Lands: Placing toilet paper in plastic bags and packing it out as trash is the best way to Leave No Trace in a desert environment. Toilet paper should not be burned. This practice can result in wild fires.
Tampons: Proper disposal of tampons requires that they be placed in plastic bags and packed out. Do not bury them because they don t decompose readily and animals may dig them up. It will take a very hot, intense fire to burn them completely.
Urine: Urine has little direct effect on vegetation or soil. In some instances urine may draw wildlife which are attracted to the salts. They can defoliate plants and dig up soil. Urinating on rocks, pine needles, and gravel is less likely to attract wildlife. Diluting urine with water from a water bottle can help minimize negative effects.
Special Considerations for River Canyons: River canyons often present unique Leave No Trace problems. The most common practice is to urinate directly in the river and pack out feces in sealed boxes for later disposal. Check with your land manager for details about specific areas.
Doesn't quite match your check list but I hope this helps.
Human Waste: Proper disposal of human waste is important to avoid pollution of water sources, avoid the negative implications of someone else finding it, minimize the possibility of spreading disease, and maximize the rate of decomposition.
In most locations, burying human feces in the correct manner is the most effective method to meet these criteria. Solid human waste must be packed out from some places, such as narrow river canyons. Land management agencies can advise you of specific rules for the area you plan to visit.
Contrary to popular opinion, research indicates that burial of feces actually slows decomposition (at least in the Rocky Mountains). Pathogens have been discovered to survive for a year or more when buried. However, in light of the other problems associated with feces, it is still generally best to bury it. The slow decomposition rate causes the need to choose the correct location, far from water, campsites, and other frequently used places.
Catholes: Catholes are the most widely accepted method of waste disposal. Locate catholes at least 200 feet (about 70 adult steps) from water, trails and camp. Select an inconspicuous site where other people will be unlikely to walk or camp. With a small garden trowel, dig a hole 6-8 inches deep and 4-6 inches in diameter. The cathole should be covered and disguised with natural materials when finished. If camping in the area for more than one night, or if camping with a large group, cathole sites should be widely dispersed.
Perhaps the most widely accepted method of backcountry human waste disposal is the cathole. The advantages are:
they are easy to dig in most areas.
they are easy to disguise after use.
they are private.
they disperse the waste rather than concentrate it (which enhances decomposition).
it is usually easy to select an out of the way location where you can be certain no one is going to casually encounter the cathole.
Selecting a Cathole Site:
Select a cathole site far from water sources, 200 feet (approximately 70 adult paces) is the recommended range.
Select an inconspicuous site untraveled by people. Examples of cathole sites include thick undergrowth, near downed timber, or on gentle hillsides.
If camping with a group or if camping in the same place for more than one night, disperse the catholes over a wide area; don t go to the same place twice.
Try to find a site with deep organic soil. This organic ma al contains organisms which will help de pose the feces. (Organic soil is usually dark and rich in color.) Refer to the jars used to demonstrate decomposition. The desert does not have as much organic soil as a forested area. (See number 2 under Digging a Cathole below.)
If possible, locate your cathole where it will receive maximum sunlight. The heat from the sun will aid decomposition.
Choose an elevated site where water would not normally during runoff or rain storms. The idea here is to keep the feces out of water. Over time, the decomposing feces will percolate into the soil before reaching water sources.
Digging a Cathole:
A small garden trowel is the perfect tool for digging a cathole.
Dig the hole 6-8 inches deep (about the length of the trowel blade) and 4-6 inches in diameter. In a hot desert, human waste does not biodegrade easily because there is little organic soil to help break it down. In the desert, the cathole should be only 4-6 inches deep. This will allow the heat and sun to hasten the decay process.
When finished, the cathole should be filled with the original dirt and disguised with native materials.
Catholes in Arid Lands: A cathole is the most widely accepted means of waste disposal in arid lands. Locate catholes at least 200 feet (about 70 adult steps) from water, trails, and camp. Avoid areas where water visibly flows, such as sandy washes, even if they are dry at the moment. Select a site that will maximize exposure to the sun in order to aid decomposition. Because the sun s heat will penetrate desert soils several inches, it can eventually kill pathogens if the feces are buried properly. South-facing slopes and ridge tops will have more exposure to sun and heat than other areas.
Latrines: Though catholes are recommended for most situations, there are times when latrines may be more applicable, such as when camping with young children or if staying in one camp for longer than a few nights. Use similar criteria for selecting a latrine location as those used to locate a cathole. Since this higher concentration of feces will decompose very slowly, location is especially important. A good way to speed decomposition and diminish odors is to toss in a handful of soil after each use. Ask your land manager about latrine-building techniques.
Toilet Paper: Use toilet paper sparingly and use only plain, white, non-perfumed brands. Toilet paper must be disposed of properly! It should either be thoroughly buried in a cathole or placed in plastic bags and packed out. Natural toilet paper has been used by many campers for years. When done correctly, this method is as sanitary as regular toilet paper, but without the impact problems. Popular types of natural toilet paper include stones, vegetation and snow. Obviously, some experimentation is necessary to make this practice work for you, but it is worth a try! Burning toilet paper in a cathole is not generally recommended.
Toilet Paper in Arid Lands: Placing toilet paper in plastic bags and packing it out as trash is the best way to Leave No Trace in a desert environment. Toilet paper should not be burned. This practice can result in wild fires.
Tampons: Proper disposal of tampons requires that they be placed in plastic bags and packed out. Do not bury them because they don t decompose readily and animals may dig them up. It will take a very hot, intense fire to burn them completely.
Urine: Urine has little direct effect on vegetation or soil. In some instances urine may draw wildlife which are attracted to the salts. They can defoliate plants and dig up soil. Urinating on rocks, pine needles, and gravel is less likely to attract wildlife. Diluting urine with water from a water bottle can help minimize negative effects.
Special Considerations for River Canyons: River canyons often present unique Leave No Trace problems. The most common practice is to urinate directly in the river and pack out feces in sealed boxes for later disposal. Check with your land manager for details about specific areas.
Doesn't quite match your check list but I hope this helps.
Thanks scoutdad, That is excellent information. There are some things mentioned that apply to Philmont and other dry western areas that don't necessarily apply to the Buffalo River. For example smearing feces and non-burning of TP in catholes. Arid vs Humid.
And as you mentioned it does not deal directly with my objective of having a system that is convenient (not requiring cat holes), portable and yet does not required tranporting the #2 down river.
The closest I have come to what I want is to line the bucket with a lightweight but watertight plastic bag. When it comes time to dump the bucket, dig a trench style cathole, dump the bucket and fold the empty but dirty plastic bag and place it in another bag for transport home. Knowing me, I envision all kinds of things that could go wrong where I would not be as clean as I was before digging the cathole. I have concluded at least one person, probably me will have to make the trip to the woods to do the dumping. No way around that.
Roger's suggestion of taking some lime along is a good one. Campfire ashes might work too.
And as you mentioned it does not deal directly with my objective of having a system that is convenient (not requiring cat holes), portable and yet does not required tranporting the #2 down river.
The closest I have come to what I want is to line the bucket with a lightweight but watertight plastic bag. When it comes time to dump the bucket, dig a trench style cathole, dump the bucket and fold the empty but dirty plastic bag and place it in another bag for transport home. Knowing me, I envision all kinds of things that could go wrong where I would not be as clean as I was before digging the cathole. I have concluded at least one person, probably me will have to make the trip to the woods to do the dumping. No way around that.
Roger's suggestion of taking some lime along is a good one. Campfire ashes might work too.
We are all afflicted with Cognitive Dissonance. The greater our religious, social, financial or political affiliation, the greater the affliction. We hear what we want to hear. We believe what we want to believe. Truth becomes irrelevant.
Ok im starting to see the picture here. I have seen somewhere bio-degradeable bags, with those you can bury the whole thing for this but i don't remember if they were big enough for a 5 gallon bucket. Iwill try to find the information agin.
Maybe something like this
http://www.biodegradablestore.com/cip/cip_bags.html
http://www.biogroupusa.com/portable-cam ... ilets.html
Maybe something like this
http://www.biodegradablestore.com/cip/cip_bags.html
http://www.biogroupusa.com/portable-cam ... ilets.html
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robkanraft
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- Posts: 221
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:00 pm
- Location: Pburg, KS
camo, why not toilet paper?
Litter by any other color is still litter and TP by anyother color is still TP
We are all afflicted with Cognitive Dissonance. The greater our religious, social, financial or political affiliation, the greater the affliction. We hear what we want to hear. We believe what we want to believe. Truth becomes irrelevant.
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Cowper
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- Posts: 2423
- Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 10:39 am
- Name: Cowper C
- Location: Conway, AR
- Contact:
Actually, camo toilet paper is easier to find than you might think:robkanraft wrote:I hate the annual toilet paper flowers that appear up and down the banks of the Buffalo. Pack it out or burn it if safe. They make all kinds of impractical things like knives and flashlights in camo, why not toilet paper?
http://www.baronbob.com/camouflage-toiletpaper.htm
However, if people are not going to use "cathole" and other appropriate techniques, I actually PREFER that they use the white toilet paper. I may cuss them, but at least I'm not stepping in it if I know where it is.
I hate to say this, BUUUUUUT -
If we camp in really small groups, maybe catholes are still appropriate. If we start camping in groups of 10 to 20 people, in a high use corridor like the Buffalo, then maybe we need to reconsider and voluntarily adopt the same techniques that we already use on Western rivers.
(Whoever carries the groover doesn't have to help cook or clean dishes; maybe we'd get a volunteer.)
Trash: Get a little every time you go!
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robkanraft
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- Posts: 221
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:00 pm
- Location: Pburg, KS
What a great topic! Cowper, yes I called for camo TP in jest, knowing darn well diaper-dumpers don't care about the color or the place and I'd get hammered for saying it. And, I'd concur, group camps should consider a groover like the Eco-Safe for the solid waste. That said..next question, to pee on the ground or in the swim as we do out west?
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