Leave No Trace (LNT)

[sugarmtngal]

Richard; I enjoyed reading about your LNT classes at Devil's Den and the pictures of you are quite entertaining in the Ozark Society Newsletter. Congrats on being a LNT Instructor!

Yesterday at Lee I picked up two plastic bags of trash before setting off at the put-in, I was still in trash pick-up mode after the West Fork CleanUp on Sat. We were unable to remove a tire from the bank, but if Eric had been there we could of done it! It always amazes me at the trash people leave behind! Hope you are feeling more like yourself these days.

Will you be teaching a LNT Class soon?

[Richard]

Gretchen,

Picking up litter is the kind of example we need more of. Great job!

I think it will be a while before I am myself again. This thing really knocked the puddun outta me.
I am not suppose to drive until the end of the month. Doctor said it would take that long for the brain damage to reverse itself. Having said that, I am doing much better.

I have no plans to teach a formal class at this time. I like the way LNT sets out principles rather than rules. I will try teaching LNT on the float trips by example and suggestion. If there is interest, we can get more formal.

[fryingsquirrel]

Richard, whenever you decide to teach LNT is fine with me. You have my interest. Maybe next time I'm on the river with you...And I assure you there WILL be a next time!
See you on the water, Gretchen and Richard
Jon Ellwood

[GutIt]

I am familiar with the LNT Principles.

I just wonder why there are no more groovers than I ever see out there. There are ways to deal with this and I’m talking packers as well as boaters. I just can’t fathom why any good boater or packer wouldn’t want for this to happen in their fave places! I know a lot of boaters who subscribe to this belief. They are way comfortable doing this and as a matter of fact? Prefer it, as it turns out!

The LNT “cathole” is, in my opinion dated and should not be condoned except in emergency! Let’s face it guys! There is just too much traffic in our fave places and too little discipline. We can carry this out easily. There are plenty of ways to deal with this now. The cathole in the loam is almost never observed on the river, sadly. If you observe Richard’s sage advice, that will put you in the tick area. As does the 200’ rule. The groover will alleviate that as well as add convenience and eliminate the need to get too far out. This one requirement alone would cut down on the huge amount of little land mines I have to see and wonder if I am going to contact hepatitis! Not entirely, but jeez! You would not believe the footage I have of the land mine scenario. And I am not particularly proud of this since I live and boat in the Ozarks.

In most of the places I go across the country, groovers are required. A couple good friends of mine, who come this way every-so-occasionally, come from here originally, and float on our streams when they do, have asked me about this repeatedly. They live out West and cannot believe we are so behind in our thinking as to not require this piece of equipment. Especially on our 1st National Bad-A Protected, as well as MO’s National Scenic. Most of the hard-core boaters will recognize Mr. R. Sanner & Mr. K. Harris’ name if I dropped it. I am a little embarrassed that they and their lovely & charming families come back out here and see our beautiful gravel bars trashed. They came from here and can no longer believe what it has come to. My Heart is on the Ground.

We can improve on the awesome LNT philosophy just by being Who We Are and Setting the Example. But it will be up to people like all of us to make it happen. Like it or not? We set the Standard.

Let’s do the right thing!

[Eric Esche]

I do agree with GutIt and others on this LNT point, and it's been proposed often on this board. NO reason why can't use groovers on our trips on any river.

If I am on a trip with my Endural cargo barge, I volunteer to haul it if someone else brings one, and I will bring the privacy tent to go with it if you let me know in advance so I can pack it before leaving home.

If I can't go on a trip, I'd be glad to send the privacy shelter along with anyone on the trip. I got it as group gear, just like the Zodi hot water heater. Again, if you want me to bring it, tell me in advance. Besides being great for hot showers, the Zodi also is pretty good for kitchen duty. We used it for both at home here during the ice storm this winter.

Eric Esche

[GutIt]

Funny you should mention that Eric!

Just this year I purchased a privacy tent for my groover, and maybe for the reasons one might not necessarily expect.

I never used a privacy tent for any of my trips, but have owned a groover for several years now. Well, at least something other than the rocket box setup that is the “groover” namesake! Whether it was a ‘nighter on the Buffalo or a major multi-day run down the Green, I have it. Typical philosophy has always been put the groover in a spot away from everyone that had a scenic view! That way you would have something cool to look at! And that is a philosophy I still subscribe to. In some conditions.

But this year I have reconsidered this policy thanks to Mr. Richard and his unfortunate tick encounter.

What blows me away about this, and is quite typical of Richard, is that he wants us to learn something from this experience. He has had a rough go of this, by god, and we all have him on our minds and worry. But jeez, the dude seems at least as worried about others paying heed as he is about his own recovery! Now that, to me, is exceedingly cool and a quality I certainly admire.

So since I always offer my groover on any Run I do, I decided this year that I would actually learn something for a change, and maybe do something that would be in line with what I am seeing here.

So I sucked it up and got a privacy tent. This can be set up on the gravel bar without having to go into the sticks & ticks. It is private, it is in line with or exceeds LNT Principles because we are taking everything out with us, can be used without embarrassment or causing any offense. (hey! I am an “if you don’t want to see, then don’t look kind of guy! Offense and embarrassment are not really a part of my already limited vocabulary!) I guess I just thought that if I am going to go on these group runs, this is something that I should really do. Its kind of unusual for me because the esteemed Group of people I am lucky enough to boat the Flats with most often (and don’t ask me why they can stand me for longer than 3 seconds at a time!) already bring their own personal system.

But you know? I was glad to do it, it is Right on a lot of levels, and I am getting a R. McF plaque made because I am naming it after him! It will hang in the Place of Honor that it deserves! I am also thrilled to add an E. Esche plaque, which will light the way because these two guys, among others, always light the path.

Makes it easier for the rest of us to see it!

Plus Eric bangs out a World Class Cookie!

Right On!

[Mtngal]

Ooooookay, I sure hate doing this......fully exposing my ignorance........BUT what is a "groover"?????

[okieboater]

Rocket boxes is the common name for surplus Army ammunition containers.

They are heavy metal boxes roughly 14 inches long maybe a 18 inches hi and maybe 7 or 8 inches wide. These boxes do come in various sizes.

They are very heavy and well made with a removable top that attaches with a set of spring loaded handles with a water proof gasket.

In the early days of western multi day river running some sort of carry out system for human excrement was mandated by the Rangers.

Lots of people used these rocket boxes. They just took off the lids and a person sat down on the open edges of the box and did their business. This left a parallel set of groove marks on that persons cheeks. Hence the word groovers was given to these rocket boxes or Poo boxes or any other common names.

Nowadays there are special seats and containers made that fit in rocket boxes that are a lot more sanitary and comfortable to use. Google and Look up eco safe up in wichita kansas for the most common version.

Nowadays, when on western river trips, the location of the groover is a special job. In that they are always placed in a scenic spot.

I agree with what has been posted here. IE The Buffalo River is a special place and is being "loved" to death. We should set the example and use a system like the eco safe on our Buffalo River trips.

[sugarmtngal]

groovy Dave!

[Mtngal]

Thanks to all who replied. That'd been the last thing I'd thought it was.

[plaidpants]

When I was just a toddler on the river I would go to the tick infested, poison ivy, snake ridden jungles and dig cat holes. I think it was about 8 years ago on my first over night trip on a river. That trip was with Gut It on the Current River. Another trip with Gut It was on Green River in Utah where groovers are required. Don't leave shore with out it. Since this day I have invested in the folowing really expensive equipment to help some with LNT.

A toilet seat that fits a 5 gal bucket (Snaps in place) $14.00, a 5 gal. bucket lid (can also be used to dip water to put out campfires), a shanty from Bass Pro $29.95 (also seconds as a dressing room for the modest folks), and wag bags that are $39.99 for a box of 12 from Basspro (can be purchased at Walmart for less price I am told). A wag Bag can be used up to 3 times each and disposed of in the trash can at most take outs on the buffalo. As you can see I had to spend my retirement funds. Not having a groover, no excuse.

On over night trips you can check my gear and my groover equipment is with me. The toilet seat fits into the shanty bag with the shanty that folds up very easily as does the wag bags. So when it is time to load up for the river the I grab the shanty bags and the 5 gal bucket. The shanty bag may be 2 inches thick and 20 inches in diameter. Even with that I still have room for rain jacket and that makes Gut It happy he doesn't have to carry it for me.

If you don't have a groover shame on you.

[Mtngal]

Well, I ain't even gonna ask whattheheck a wag bag is ............

[Richard]

I have this plus the seat that is kept inside the storage bag.
http://www.evergreen-outdoors.net/outba ... _privy.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I am still trying to figure out a less costly but environmentally friendly alternative to the Pett Wag bag.

Mtngal, this is the complete system including the wag bag. The wag bag is environmentally friendly. http://www.thepett.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And you didn't even have to ask . . . .

This may be worth noting:

i just climbed whitney a week and a half ago...i successfully withheld from using the wagbag for a day but then had to give in. actually it isnt a bad system and they work all right. i do have one recommendation...find a sack you can throw it in and attach to the outside of your pack. someone in our group had hidden hers (fully loaded and sealed) in her backpack and then had some "containment issues". rest assured she hiked alone the rest of the trip.
+andy

[okieboater]

Folks,

Wag bags do make it easier to handle bags of poo on short trips.

Be Aware that many Western River Permits do not allow WAG Bags.

So, be sure to check permits before you head out west.

The Eco Safe units (to the best of my knowledge) enjoy universal acceptance from the Rangers along with the big outfitter units from Partner Steel. Eco safe units are not cheap but price is reasonable when you consider the hazards of transporting poo in your boat or truck.

Eco Safe units are much easier to handle as many rafts are set up to carry rocket boxes (Believe me, I just got off a trip where I hauled a couple eco safe units full of poo) and a rocket box full of poo is kind of heavy for us over the hill boaters.

I have used the Partner Steel units on several commercial trips and they are truely a throne type unit that offers comfort and great views. The down side is it takes two bubba's in good shape to carry one of these units plus they take up a lot of raft space just due to the size.

I use and recommend the eco safe units (no connection to them, just a long time user of their product) because they are reasonably priced, easier to find places to clean them out, easier to transport and so far mine and all I am aware of are bomb proof. I did call eco cafe and asked about the life of the plastic. Answer given was long as bio degradable odor control stuff is used they think the plastic will last a lifetime of use. Any chemicals that contain the ingredients many RV deodrants use will eat away the plastic.

I have never used the bucket systems with just a lid between me and 5 gallons of poo and related gases. The eco safe unit has a sturdy plastic container inside of a rocket box with a really strong seal. Like I said, I spent a lot of river time setting between two eco safe rocket boxes in the hot sun a few weeks ago and never felt threatened due to gas build up blowing off a bucket lid.

However, the bucket type units may work fine for a overnight Buffalo River trip.

[SteveGabbard]

So what do kayakers do when required to carry a "Groover" ?