RIVER CAMPING 101- Ohhhhhhhhh Cr. . .

[okieboater]

I know several paddling clubs that have pooled money and purchased Eco Safe systems that can be checked out and used by club members. I think retail for the basic system is in the $160 range plus a rocket box and extra tanks are somewhere in the $100 dollar range. I just got a flyer and Cascade Outfitters has the Eco Safe stuff on sale at a good discount.

I know the storage and check out and in procedures can be an issue. As large as our ACC Club is there might need to be a couple of storage places.

It would be a lot of work just to manage a system but in my opinion well worth it for the ACC image.

Even tho I have a Eco Safe system, I would be glad to join Tris and make a contribution to the poo fund if the ACC BOD approves and supports a project like this.

Even if the ACC does not do the project some good can come out of this discussion.

The Eco Safe units are not sold directly to individuals. But if an official Club has a group of orders, Eco Safe management has in the past sold a number of units to the club at a good discount. If the club makes the purchase and then gets the units out in the hands of anyone who does a prepay for the cost of a unit they want, That might be a way to get a number of systems in the hands of ACC members who would be inclined to provide same on trips they are on. Some of the lawyers out there would need to chime in on whether this is legal or not. But it is one way to cut down on river environment damage just by getting more poo units out there and in use.

[Richard]

I am in favor of the motion because it can be used on any river and is proven to work.

At the same time I am going to pursue a less costly BioBag/Luggable Loo approach as well. If it works, it will be less costly, environmentally friendly and more convenient for the Buffalo but would not be acceptable out west.

[Bob Stout]

I helped a friend who drew a Yampa permit set up his trip in 06. I borrowed a portable system, much like a grover system, but with its own outer container system (instead of rocket boxes) from the Ozark Society. I don't remember how many people were in our party - probably close to 20. I set up and took down the system all through the trip.

Lucky for me, Mike and Liz were still around when it came time to empty and clean up the "honey pots" at Split Mountain Campground. Liz was else-where packing their truck while Mike helped me empty and clean them - it was a real job - not one I would want every day.

That said - I would take on the job again for the sake of the river and the opportunity to make the trip.

[Trismegistus]

"I would take on the job again for the sake of the river and the opportunity to make the trip.

I like the way you think Bob -- yet another reason we love ya!!

[Roger]

Dave, regarding the buildup of gases in the rocketboxes, I remember on my first trip watching Walter carefully "burp" the used-up boxes (placing rag/papertowels over end and carefully releasing the locking part while kneeling on it to keep it from popping up unexpectedly :shock: ). He did so without his head over the end!

When I put my system together, Dennis P. took the lids, drilled a hole in the center and welded a nut over the hole. We then took a rubber washer and forced it over the bolt and screwed it in. To release the gases safely, all one had to do was hold a rag around the screwdriver and unscrew gently waiting to hear that hiss of any escaping buildup.

Got the tip from Walter since the next time I went, he had outfitted his boxes in a similar way.

[Trismegistus]

Nice tip!

Reminding me of other "burps" and how old I am gettin' -- I go back to the days of caving up in those hills with the famed "carbide lights" -- always trying to keep the flame alit while wading through underground streams, burning the butt of the person just a head of you and having to pack out the residue to avoid hurting the underground inhabitants. That gas would still be going off in our carry-out waterproof ammo boxes -- get careless and open the box in a tight passage with the flame alit on your head and ka-boooom. My ears still ring and my hair remains singed to the follicle. From the carbide, to the flashlight, to the waterproof, solar-powered LED headlamp -- times be a changin'.

[okieboater]

Yup, one of the many joys of working with Groovers in hot weather is the burping procedure.

More fun than riding in a crowded SUV with a bunch of your paddling bud's after a big meal of BBQ and Bean's!!!!!!

A great big thank you to Walter for taking the time to teach many of us how to take care of the things that have to be done on river trips to keep us happy and safe.


Then you have Dee Tucker's Official Johnson and Johnson Medical pack of butt floss left by the groover. On my first Middle Fork trip with Walter, I made my first morning groover trip, noticed the official looking package of butt floss. Lots of illustrated procedures on it's use and how sanitary the procedure was. I choose not to follow instructions and ask for guidance from the Trip Leader. I looked up Walter and in a very low voice asked Walter if I should have used the butt floss. Walter looked at me and said two words "Dee Tucker".

Man I still get a laugh when I remember that stuff.

[DeBo]

I think that most of the trip leaders who routinely take groups on western river trip already have access to groover or eco-safe systems. What I would like to do is propose to the board that the ACC invest in a bio-bag system for use by club members who are taking large groups on overnight trips in state. Currently, Arkansas has no requirements for carrying out waste. I would like to see the ACC step up and go above and beyond what is now required. I think that it will be only a matter of time before we see more stringent rules on popular places such as the Buffalo, Current and Eleven Point and eventually even permitting may be required. I hope that if more of us are willing to take voluntary action to reduce impact, permitting will be unnecessary.
Now to clarify, the Luggable Loo system is NOT the same as the others that you have been talking about here, UNLESS you intend to carry the waste down river, and dispose of it later at an RV dump station or similar facility.

I agree that the eco-safe system is the best because it does not use the disposable bags. But another very important issue is, which system will get the most people carrying it out for our in-state trips where carrying it out is voluntary?

Since we don’t have special clean-up stations like those near the Middle Fork take-out, I think many will choose cat holes over the eco-safe and similar systems that require someone to clean out a container after the trip is over.

The PETT system allows each user to handle only the bag that contains their own “stuff”, and thus I think will be the hands-down winner when we ask everyone the question, “are you honestly willing to use this system on your next overnight trip?”

As to the impact, yes, the PETT is disposable. So are many of the other products we use every day. Soft drink containers mostly get disposed of; only a few are recycled.

If you are concerned about the disposable aspect of the PETT system, then consider some other thing you can do differently to reduce waste, as an offset” to using the PETT once or twice per year.

[Michele Jackson]

Randy and I bought an Eco-safe system and rocket box from http://www.outdoorplay.com/

If you search for "eco-safe" the product/page will come up. The Eco-safe system is $159.95, the ammo box is 24.95.

Like Dave, if I ever join one of the big group trips (and I hope to) I'd be happy to offer ours for use and I'd even empty it. I did that job on a Yampa trip I was on. Not great, but not a huge deal in my experience. Of course that was several years ago and maybe my memory has just faded.....

[Richard]

Very well stated Debo. To clarify the Luggable Loo approach I envision

I have the Porta-privy tent
http://www.cabelas.com/link-12/pod/0032659.shtml

I have the Luggable Loo
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templ ... &noImage=0

I am looking for the best source for Biobags
http://www.dirtworks.net/Images/BioBag/ ... HENbox.gif

I have plastic trash bags
I have paper bags
I have ziplock bags
I have disposable gloves
I have a shovel

So here is the plan:
Set up:
Erect the porta-privey on the gravel bar
place a plastic liner bag in the Luggable Loo
place the biobag in the plastic liner
Place the Luggable Loo in the porta-privey
Place TP, and paper bag in the porta-privey
Use:
Make your deposit in the Luggable Loo sans TP etc.
Place used TP in the paper bag
Disposal:
Paper bag goes to the fire to be burned
carry the Luggable Loo up the hill
Dig shallow hole. Wearing gloves, place the biobag in the hole and cover
place the liner bag and gloves in a ziplock bag.
Packing:
Take down porta-privey and put it away with the Luggable Loo seat.
Load the canoe

The equipment will require minimal cleaning and the ziplock will go in the trash.

We shall see if this really works on the next float. My big concern is that as I go up the hill to take the pail of...
I'll slip and fall and the pail and all will. . .
Yep, you got the picture.

[Cowper]

Richard,

Cognitive Dissonance is at work! You're not hearing what we're saying.

No clarification of what you plan to do is required - we understand. You plan to bury the waste of your entire group in a single hole.

We are trying to tell you that we believe the system you are proposing is NOT ecologically friendly because it concentrates the wastes of several individuals and then disposes of them in the very same high-use area we are trying to protect. I provided reference to some of the latest studies above; all of which supported the position that group burial is no longer a recommended disposal method.

A carry-out system would be best. Individual cat-holes would be the second choice. Group latrines, including you digging the hole the next day, are the last choice, are not recommended in the vast majority of the current literature, and are not recommended by the Park Service guidelines that apply to the specific area where you plan to do this.

Edit: My response was to burying the waste only, which is functionaly equivalent to a group latrine. But you really said "place the biobag in the hole and cover". That's even worse - you're now burying trash if it is still in the biobag. The rules clearly say "Visitors are required to transport all of their refuse, waste and trash to a place where the materials may be safely and lawfully disposed."

PLEASE DON'T DO IT THE WAY YOU HAVE PROPOSED! (can you hear me now?)

[Richard]

Hmmmm Are you saying I have cognitive dissonance? Me? No way!

But then again. Never thought of it as a group latrine. That didn't register.

Cowper, I think I am beginning to hear you . . .

[Cowper]

I love ya, man.

Hey, does this make me an honorary Yankee?

[Richard]

Hey, does this make me an honorary Yankee?

Maybe, Cuz you didn't spell it right. The correct spelling is "damnyankee"
Just cuz I don't have a southern accent don't make me a damnyankee. I have never lived north of the Mason Dixon.

And now back to the topic at hand. I am not totally convinced the group hole is not the way to go. I am thinking about doing some experimenting. But not on the Buffalo. Cowper, I am having a poop party . . . you are invited, you luggable loo you.

[Richard]

OK, Sorry, but Cognitive Dissonance has kicked in again. I still am not convince my system will not work on the Buffalo. We are talking Buffalo, not Salmon. We are talking Humid, not Arid. We are talking gravel bars next to large forested areas with plenty of soil ready to decompose anything that hits it.

Granted, the more feces the bigger the challenge. But we are not talking about a weeks worth of stuff. 20 people, one night.

I have also read the horror stories about burning TP. But again east is east and west is west. I see nothing wrong with my system for TP disposal.

Even the Sierra Club agrees with me on fecal disposal . . . I think.
From their website:

Bury human feces in individual catholes. Even though burial of human feces slows down decomposition, it is still considered the best disposal method.

. . .Pathogens can survive for a year or more, so it is important to dig catholes at least 200 feet from water, trails, and campsites.

If you are staying in one camp for more than a few nights, it's best to dig a group latrine. In this case, select your latrine site the same way you would a cathole.
http://www.sierraclub.org/outings/natio ... erness.asp