RPM Max vs. large Pyranha Burn

[Butch Crain]

Dagger has discontinued the Max and used ones are scarce locally. Does anyone have an opinion on the Burn compared to the Max? At 5'7", 190 w/o gear, I've got a pretty low center of gravity (or maybe that's not too important in a WW boat?).

[okieboater]

I have a RPM Max since 1996 and it is my favorite all around kayak.

I purchased a large Burn about a year ago as a creek boat.

Two entirely different boats.

My opinion only. If you want a easy to paddle, extremely easy to roll, great surfing machine, very fast on the water and general all around river runner - search out a RPM Max. Seems like I saw some new ones available on the Internet so do a search there and keep looking, if that is the kind of boating you want to do.

My opinion only. If you want a good creek boat - get the Burn. The Burn is going to excel on steep creeks with sharp drops, tight turns and lots of funny water to blast thru. I have heard several people refer to the Burn as the point and paddle creek boat - a good thing about the Burn is long as you have it moving, it more or less takes care of itself.

It took me a lot of modification to the Burn's outfitting to get it right for me, but at this point in time the boat is very comfortable for me - one of the best ever - but it took time and effort to get it where it is.

The Burn is a lot slower in general down river floating than the RPM Max. In the Burn some ferry moves that require boat speed just will not happen where my RPM Max just shoots across. Initially the Burn feels a bit more stable than the RPM Max (the Burn is more flat on the bottom and has sharper edges than the RPM Max - thus the Burn initial stability is very good - even tho among new school designs I find the Burn has a lot more secondary stability on edge - my experience has been when the Burn decides to flip - it goes over fast. And, in my experience the Burn is much much harder to roll than my RPM Max. In the RPM Max, my rolls are pretty much automatic and effortless. In the Burn, I've got a way to go to get to an automatic roll. I'm pretty much there on flat water, not there on combat rolls. If I set up close to right, sweep close to right and do a perfect head down hip snap - the Burn comes up slowly. The RPM Max allows for a lot of slack and just rolls up pretty much no matter what screw up I do on roll technique.

Bottom line, my opinion, if you want a fast, easy to roll, fun surfing big boy's river runner - get the RPM Max.

If you want a really good boofing, hole punching, spinning machine creek boat, that requires you to have good rolling and paddling technique to bring out what the boat has to offer - get the Burn. I have done down river in the Burn and it is very comfy and long as I'm just floating down it's good to go.

Both boats are very good at what they do best, can do a lot of things well and in my opinion, the RPM Max as a general river runner and Burn as a Creek boat is about as good as I have found ever over many years of paddling kayaks.

You will not go wrong with either, it is just a matter of what you want to do and how much time you want to spend on technique.

PS: A low center of gravity, if kept centered in the kayak is a very very good thing to have. One thing the RPM Max requires for best performance is good hinge at the hip chest forward positioning. I think the Burn is more forgiving than the Max in this area.

[Butch Crain]

Thanks Dave - that all makes perfect sense. I'll have to be patient until I can find a Max. I met some friends at the dragover last weekend - great company, but my barge is so stable, it kind of takes the fun out of it, so I'm getting antsy.

And thanks again for your coaching at the Rec school. I hope I'll have the chance to see you, Larry, and the others on the water again.

[super ez]

I am a great fan of the Max; I too would like to find one.

I have not paddled a Burn; However, I have paddled a lot of boats for larger paddlers. If you are not interested in a play type boat, I recommend the Habitat by wavesport. Very stable, easy to roll. Front surfs well. I have been able to flat spin.

[johned]

Paddled an Everest for a week in July out east. Although Pyranha lists it as an Expedition Boat, it's only 3 inches longer than the Large Burn that I have been paddling. It is a very stable river runner in my opinion and after that week, the Burn felt squirrelly as all get out. The Burn is a very responsive boat and I was over doing my rotation, edging, etc. The Everst was much faster downstream than the Burns I was running with. As for rolling, the Everest seemed to be much more forgiving of my lapses in concentration while under water.

[Charlie Ford]

I have not paddled either of the boats you are talking about. However I can agree with super ez that the habitat is an extremely easy boat to roll and paddle.

[super ez]

Butch,,,,, you should try a rpm... if you fit through the hips it may be a better choice... also think about the redline..... same issue if you fit in the hips in the boat

[Cowper]

Knowing where you live, and that you also float stuff like the Red, I just can't imagine that a faster, general river runner like the RPM Max wouldn't be a better choice than any "full on" creek boat. Dave's reviews have got to be "right on" since he has paddled both boats.

Another boat to look at would be the new LL Remix series. I've only paddled one in a pool, but it felt extremely fast (for a WW boat). It was also extremely stable, but, like any boat that stability also meant a little extra "umph" was needed when hip-snapping for a roll. (This was just an initial impression based on a 5 minute session, if someone who has paddled the boat more than me wants to disagree I won't argue the point.)

[Crane]

Butch bought an RPM Max after this thread went on the board some time ago... I now own it. Let the bidding begin!!

[Cowper]

My bad, didn't notice the lag time between the two previous posts. I may just delete my response in a day or two; if we all do the same, we can return this thread to its correct place in time and space.

[Crane]

You can't go back...

[okieboater]

Hey Crane, have you took the RPM Max out for a spin yet?

By the way the RPM Max is my most favorite all around river runner kayak, been enjoying mine since 1996, plastic getting a little thin but it still takes care of me and gives me a lot of fun

dave

[Crane]

The plastic on this one is just like new, Dave. Wanna trade?

[okieboater]

Better not, I would rather see you enjoy that Max and wear it down from good times river running!!

My good horse has earned it's retirement and besides it fits me like a glove

dave

[RickM]

Wow, so from what I'm reading here, I may be killing myself trying to learn to roll in my large Pyranha Burn. I bought it last fall and am just getting into WW paddling. Done flatwater for years though and never had to roll. I'm doing ok in the pool so far...successfully rolling it most of the time, but still screwing up some. Have never attempted a roll in a different boat. We have our last pool session this Thursday night and I'm gonna have to give it a shot in a couple other boats and see if it's just me or if it's really the boat that's harder to roll. hmmmm......