boat repair opinion

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ico135b
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boat repair opinion

Post by ico135b » Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:06 pm

Hello all,
First post here so thanks in advance. I have been looking for a canoe for a bit but have a question regarding Royalex patches. The canoe i am looking at is a Nova Prospector 16' Royalexlite and i have pasted a picture of repair below. Does that seem like a large section or is it fairly typical. Pictures show canoe hanging in garage so i assume that has been garage kept. Is it pretty standard to see patches on used Royalex canoes? He said it was professionally done but you know how that goes.
Also any general comments on quality of canoe or fair price for it.


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Re: boat repair opinion

Post by kru1 » Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:06 pm

Welcome,

That just looks like a kevlar skid plate to me. I have them on both ends of my tandem canoes. It is perfectly normal, and I would recommend putting one on the other end if you are going to do a lot of paddling on our streams.

kru
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Re: boat repair opinion

Post by sig » Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:11 pm

^^ what he said.
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Eric Esche
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Re: boat repair opinion

Post by Eric Esche » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:04 pm

The "patch" you are showing us in the photo is in the location where one normally sees Kevlar Felt + Epoxy Resin "skid" or "grunch" plates. The width shown is not uncommon and there are commercially available patch kits out there just this size. I have them on one of my canoes and the original patch (Made by Jim Henry himself) held from early 1973 until 2012 before I patched the patch, and this canoe has seen a lot of heavy use over the years since I bought it used in 1974. Wider skid plates protect a wider area and seem to adhere better than skinnier ones. Without removing the patch (not desirable unless the skid plate is coming loose, it is about impossible to determine what it covers up, but if the patch is a good one, it probably does not matter, unless the damage is very major to the point of being structural or through and through, in which case, a patch on both sides is often used. More patches add more weight, but Kevlar felt patches rarely fail.

If the other end does not have a matching skid plate, you might want to add one for a cost of $10 (do it yourself with easy access to materials) to $100 (getting a quality shop to do it right)

If the raised edge of the patch creates problems due to rough edges or hanging on rocks like a kayak chine, the edge can be carefully ground down with a dremel until it is feathered and near flush, but I recommend you line the edge of the area you do not want ground with a few layers of tape until you are skilled in grinding with a dremel or you can gouge a ding in a millisecond. Nothing against this patch - it looks like 90% of the skid plates out there. Most serious canoeistsof Royalex or Royalite hulls consider a Kevlar skid plate a desirable upgrade.

A trick often used to get a smoother surface when patching with kevlar felt is to cover it with saran wrap and tape the edges into place after you squeegee out all the air bubbles and work the excess resin out to the edges to give a feathered edge. This can also slow by a few hours, some, (but not all) epoxy cure rates and the saran wrap may have to wear off later if not pretreated with a mold release agent. While sometimes "prettier", this does not make the patch any stronger, just smoother, and it might make the patch have slightly fewer ablative surfaces to wear off on rocks, but it is unlikely you would ever notice in the first 20-30 years.

Covering all adjoining areas with tape and saran wrap or plastic sheeting prior to patching helps the patch job look neater/prettier with fewer resin drips and smears.

As to the worth of this canoe......... I'd need to see more detailed pictures to nail it tighter, and folks always tell me I under value other people's boats for sale. On the back side of that comment, no one has ever complained that I overcharged them on one I sold. They usually run home fast thinking that they got a heck of a steal. Wide ball park range to me for this boat would be $400-$750, depending on many factors

Here's my thinking. I see what looks like a fair scrape across the bottom on the right, and being Royalite. It may need a patch there. I admit I have a bias against Royalite. The weight savings vs regular Royalex are so little and the thickness of the outer layer is "where the rubber meets the road" as they say in the tire commercials. If I wanted lighter weight, I'd buy an older Kevlar boat. It would be good to know the serial number, so that you would know what year it was made. Older is not necessarily bad with Royalex, but Royalite has not been around that long, and what vinyl is there is thinner so it wears out faster, and there is less there for the sun to oxidize and degrade. Can't see from the photo how oxidized the outer layer is, nor the condition of the gunnels, seats, and thwarts and what they are made of. Just because it is in a covered area now, does not mean it always has been, unless you can see it up close, and know what to look for. For sure - Nova is a desirable manufacturer, and the Prospector a good all round model, a desirable model not going to be made anymore, if that is what you like. Years of accumulated grime can look like severe oxidation of the outside vinyl layer, but a cleaning with Dupont 303 will help in any case and may show it is just grime. While wood gunnels are desirable to most folks, they are also labor intensive for as long as you own it and want to keep it. Aluminum gunnels are probably the most care free, but also tend to be a tad heavier. If you have a Royalite hull, it probably has plastic gunnels which are the cheapest option. Value also depends on WHERE it is for sale and what it takes to get it to you. If it is in an area where there are lots of boats for sale, value locally may go down. In an area where there is not much boating, prices asked can see both extremes.

If you do not get this canoe, you might let Okieboater (David Reid) know the details on it, as he is looking for a Prospector.

Eric Esche

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Re: boat repair opinion

Post by okieboater » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:23 pm

Eric's answer covers in depth questions about this photo.

Eric is one of the go to people I ask about canoe or WW boat repair. Always has the good stuff to recommend.

I am still looking for a Royalex Prospector long or short, would like to find a Winonah but at this stage of the game, not having any luck as Prospector owners tend to keep their craft for many years. I am about to give up on this search.

Given decent care royalex lasts many years, storing outside in direct sun (my experience) royalex get brittle.

Is the current owner the original purchaser?
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ico135b
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Re: boat repair opinion

Post by ico135b » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:52 pm

Wow thanks for all the information guys. The model year is 02 from the looks of serial number and the owner has only had for about half that life span. So not sure how was stored before then.
Has wood seats that appear to be in good condition and plastic gunnel. I can't tell about any oxidation from pics . Knew about the Royalex product being cancelled which has sped my search up. Bought an extend-a-bed a month ago that i have been nipping at the bit to use so going to look at tomorrow. It is a decent trek and significantly further than i would normally drive sense its over in TN but I am heading through there tomorrow anyway so will get a look at then.
Thanks everyone and if i decide to pass on it or come home from work today and wife has drained my piggy bank i will defiantly pass on info.

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Re: boat repair opinion

Post by ico135b » Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:37 pm

Early pic i put up there was not of the actuall patch, updated pic below. Let me know if anyone see's something of concern please.

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Re: boat repair opinion

Post by Cowper » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:46 am

I'm wondering two things - since that blue square has no logos, is that another patch? And the area Eric noticed looks to me like an out-of-focus crease, from a partial wrapping.

Things to look for - on the end, what can you see from the inside of the boat? If they had to patch that side too, then it is more significant and more likely that you'll have trouble with that area in the future. Near the gouge/ crease - does that show through on the other side? Is there evidence they had to put on a new gunwale? If the crease shows through on the other side, but there is no breach in the vinyl, I wouldn't be overly upset. A ding or minor crease in the gunwale would be a good thing, it would mean the incident was not major. Same story if there is no ding but the gunwales appear to be of the same vintage as the rest of the boat.

I don't think any of these things are show stoppers, but they should be reflected in the asking price. I absolutely hate that Royalex is going away - but, it is not the end of the world or the end of canoeing. Somebody will find a solution. We shouldn't let boat companies or private owners charge us too much more during this window of dwindling supply with the solution not yet known.

Speaking from my own past buying experience with an Izuzu trooper, don't get so set on how much you like this boat, or the fact that you drove a long way to look at it, that you're unwilling to walk away if the price doesn't match the condition. But if the price is right / close, then jump on it!
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ico135b
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Re: boat repair opinion

Post by ico135b » Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:53 pm

Cowper wrote:I'm wondering two things - since that blue square has no logos, is that another patch? And the area Eric noticed looks to me like an out-of-focus crease, from a partial wrapping.
Yeah he said the blue square was a professionally done patched hole. i guess by the sound of it hole sounds like its all the way through. I asked for details if repairs were needed on inside as well. As far as price i believe someone said rough range of 500-750, it is in middle of that.
Again thanks for help. I can compare price with new(when they were available) and other used ones and get an idea. But as far as repairs effect on canoe and price i am in the dark. So everyone's help has been awesome.

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Re: boat repair opinion

Post by ico135b » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:56 pm

Sorry for continuing post. Hopefully another newb in similar situation will come along and get as much out of it i have. I spoke again and it sounds like patch is also on inside. Would a hole that needed patching on both sides be a deal breaker.

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Re: boat repair opinion

Post by Eric Esche » Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:33 pm

Good news - bad news. The second photo makes it look like the Royalex is not badly oxidized. But the same photo shows a patch that I would want to examine in person on both sides AND it shows signs of a significant crease in the past, probably bad enough to have had to replace the gunnels, which would make me want to examine the gunnel installation job closely in person. Nice to have new gunnels IF they are properly installed, but means using quality rivits in new holes ( not the original holes) and then done by someone who knows to use rivits long enough, and not over tighten them. If they did not size the drill holes properly for the size rivit used, it can cause stresses that can fracture later in cold temps or under stress of river conditions. The blue square patch shown MIGHT be just covering a surface ding. If there is one on the other side, it was most likely a through and through. Through and throughs should be filled with epoxy and glass or kevlar felt to be a structural fix. A glue or heat on patch may look nice cosmetically, but it is not an acceptable fix for a structural tear. GIven the size of the patch, it probably is not structural. Any tear should be drill stopped at the ends and filled by resin and reinforcing fibers of some type.

And I said $400 as the lower end of the ball park range. And without a visual inspection of the gunnels and looking at it in person to make sure the canoe is square and true after a wrap AND regunneling, it is not on the higher end in my book. You can paddle a canoe that is "out of square" all day long, but sometimes they do not go where they should as well as they should and this detracts from any resale value. Fixing one that is "not right" (warped and/or twisted) usually means starting over from scratch on the rebuild, a $200-$300 job if you have the materials, experience, and do not charge for your labor.

On the positive side, like a car you buy with dents already in it, you tend to worry less with a beater if you are happy with it and wanted it.

Good luck with your decision. Let us know if you want someone to go look at it with you. I'm sure some one with experience would be glad to go with you as a paddle buddy. It's what we do for friends, even if we have not gotten to paddle with them yet. Hope to see you on the river no matter what you are paddleing.

Eric Esche

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Re: boat repair opinion

Post by Chuck123 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 2:24 am

Eric covered the topic very well and deeply. It also increases my knowledge too.

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Re: boat repair opinion

Post by okieboater » Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:15 am

For the record, I finally found and purchased a like new used Prospector 15.

Now all I need to do is get it on the water.

Thanks to all those who helped me find my Prospector 15.
Okieboater AKA Dave Reid

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