Arkansas Canoe Club Forums

2,500 Pigs Join Debate Over Farms vs. Scenery

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/28/us/25 ... ml?hp&_r=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for posting the link. Maybe that article will generate some support for our case and put some pressure on policy makers to wake up.
Ms. Marks says that sure, some waste will reach the river, but no harm will be done. Really? That's what happens when an agency that supposedly protects the environment is headed by a lawyer, not a scientist.

Has anyone heard any current news releases from the Park Service?

I am surprised the Rangers are not out in front on this thing.

The park service can't do much concerning c&h- they don't have the authority unfortunately as the farm is presumably following EPA guidelines. I'm actually currently writing a paper for school critiquing that exact point.

As John Pennington has pointed out numerous times, there is raw sewage--human s**t--going into the Buffalo River right NOW, from the Marble Falls (correct me if I am wrong) site. This seems to be a much bigger and urgent problem than a farm marring the scenery---and the speculation that hog manure might, someday, possible get into the river.

How can we address the real issue?

"Might... Someday"

How about the best case scenario is that it will be spread on the ground and the worst case is that the holding ponds overflow due to large rain events?

I thought the Marble Falls problem was being fixed? See here: http://newtoncountytimes.com/mobile/new ... 002e0.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JB2012 wrote:How can we address the real issue?

I would make a case that both are real issues, both need to be addressed. If C&H is truly "water under the bridge" as some believe, then at the very least we need to be sure they are properly monitored to insure continued compliance with all of the applicable regulations, and then shut them down if they can't or aren't willing to do that. (Right now, the owners appear to be genuinely interested in doing that, but things could change in the future so regulators and private citizens like us need to remain vigilant. "Trust but verify...")

Relative to human wastes, as Bryan has noted, Marble Falls should be already corrected, or at least well under way to resolution. When Jasper's sewer clogged and overflowed, ADEQ was notified and took action. One area where I would criticize the Park Service is that they have never taken seriously the official comments and suggestions that they should implement a "carry it out" human waste policy for overnight gravel bar campers, similar to what is done on many popular Western rivers. I think it is disingenuous for them to be so adamantly opposed to the C&H Hog farm, while failing to take any action on something else that is totally within their power because it would be "too hard" or "not accepted" by some. I would like to see an end to the summer "toilet paper flower blooms" that can be found on all of the better camping gravel bars each summer. If AGFC can stop boats and verify that those carrying beverages also carry mesh bags, then the Park Service should be able to stop boats to verify that those carrying overnight camping gear have included a toilet system or wag bags. No, of course I don't think they would achieve 100% compliance anytime soon, but even 50% would take a huge bite out of the problem.

Another vote for Cowper's comments on the use of groovers for Buffalo River floats.

Digging a little poop hole in either a gravel bar or sand bar is a short time feel good action for the pooper but the paper and poop is going to be washed into the eco system soon as a rain event happens. The pooper is only putting off the potential damage till it rains. Cat holes may work up on banks in the proper soil setup where there is time for the stuff to break down or down in the jungles of Central and South America, but they sure don't work on sand and gravel bars. When a river system like the Buffalo has the number of poopers per day or per gravel bar we see on floats, it does not take long to create a problem.

I have a Eco Safe system that fits into a rocket box and can be cleaned out pretty easily at any RV clean out facility. These things are built in Wichita KS. The Kansas Canoe and Kayak Club once got a nice discount for it's members and even purchased a few units for check out by club members. Something to think about for regular Buffy float trippers or ACC members to band together and have a few centrally located units to check out. I have my own eco-safe but would gladly donate some money to a "group" effort to set up a Buffy poop fund.

My opinion Eco Safe is the most reasonably priced "reusable" system that keeps down the smell and relatively easy to clean out. Had mine for many years and expect many more years of service from it. There are other cheaper or more expensive systems out there.

For what it is worth one of the poop in the bag systems work great for individuals or small groups for a relatively lower cost that the reusable systems. If you take advantage of the free camping along the ARK in CO be aware you have to have a poop system (even if you use the many park toilets at the putins) or you might get a ticket. So, the investment might save you money if you free camp along the ARK.

My Rocket Box Eco Safe is there for Buffalo River trips I go on or if you return it cleaned out for loan.

I encourage other Buffy float trippers to set an example by taking a poop in a reusable unit or the single use bag type units not in a makeshift sand or gravel bar.

This is still an education problem... LNT guidelines say (something like) 200ft (70 adult steps) is the distance one should go from the waters edge before going.

To me that means from the actual bank and not from the gravel bar/water edge.

It's possible, though, in some areas that still won't get you above the normal high water mark.

I disagree with Cooper and Okie. The Buffalo doesn't need anymore restrictions put on recreational boaters. Expanding the powers of the NPS is not a good thing to floaters or this club in my opinion.

My understanding is that the Buffalo is one of three National Rivers in the lower 48 states where you enjoy the freedom to put on when you want without a permit, camp where want and take out where you want.

I have seen where somebody didn't dig a cat hole before. I don't like it either. However the thought of having to pack grovers in canoes and prove to officials I am in compliance will be far worse than seeing a occasional crumped up wad of tp.

The Buffalo is different than most Western rivers concerning this subject matter. The Buffalo is not in the desert, it gets a lot of rain, we have humidity, crows, gravel not sand, we get floods.

In my opinion education would be better than enforcement.

I agree with Cowper and Okie but I also agree with what Yarbrough is saying.Conflicted.
I do'nt have any data but I would have to assume a lot of the human waste is deposited by day floaters,so unless all paddlers were required to carry out all their waste it would'nt solve the problem.
I also see a lot of horses on the trails along the river,should they,their riders and the hikers be subjected to these rules too?
I do like to have a nice clean clear river to jump into when I come out of a sweat lodge on a cool autumn night but how much regulation am I willing to tolerate?
As sig noted self regulation through education would be the best way.I would like to think most of the Buffalo's visitors go there because they love it and would'nt intentionally harm it.

Discussion and bringing forth different view points is a good thing, my opinion. Done with respect for others, all sides can learn something.

Put me down as some one who thinks we have way too many laws. As far as laws go, I am in favor of fewer but better well thought out ones that people will want to follow on their own - way too many police types every where I go these days.

I wish people would take it on themselves to use more sanitary ways to dispose of poop and trash especially to carry out human waste in containers instead of taking a dump on sand or gravel bars.

As far as me personally, I don't have any authority on anybody. But, I can set an example and hope that others will do the same as far as respect for the Buffalo River itself and others that may use the same gravel bar camps I do.

I don't want to require every one to have a rocket box in their kayak or canoe all the time. To me overnight camps on the river require more gear than just a few hour day float. So, you will see a rocket box on my overnight camps along the Buffy, or the Wag Bags etc. If I do get caught out on a day trip and have to go poop, I will walk away from the river and find a soil that will hold the poop till it degrades.

If we can get most people to take care of "our" Buffalo River like "we" do, maybe the permits etc will not be necessary.

Bottom line, education and self enforcement "doing the right thing because a person want to" is orders of magnitude better than more laws and law enforcement types.

My only interaction with a Park Ranger on the Buffalo was when I was camped at Steel Creek and one rode up on a horse.
I said hi,he just looked at me and then seemed to be inspectecting my picnic table for a while.He rode off and I thought"What an a$shole".
Later I found out a ranger had been fired for being drunk on duty.I figure it was him.

It always amazed me to see the exposed toilet paper blooms and turds just laying there on gravel bars or just into the vegetation and I wondered how lazy and immodest people are. I've always trekked a couple hundred feet or more back into the loamy, vegetative soil, dug a cat hole at the proper depth for maximum decomposition, burned the paper and covered it up and dressed up the area to, hopefully, leave no trace. This is what we do backpacking and spending time in the woods and if boaters did the same, we would minimize the bacterial and visible impact.
I can't stand all the laws so education is our only hope. Somebody long ago told me what to do. We should walk up to others and help set examples.

cpresoz wrote: We should walk up to others and help set examples.

ive had mixed results with this