Advice from Rafters.

[paddledog]

Well I have learned a lot over the last couple months about becoming an inflatable kinda guy.
We bought 12 rafts, 2 were salvaged for parts,
5 were sold as is and 5 were held as usable, soon to be trimmed to 4 keepers.
These are 12 footers, two thwarts, no frame so far. 16" tubes.

So the time has come to start spending frivolously on the extras.
First is a pump. I have a high volume low pressure plug in pump for the put in, but
what are your thoughts on manual, take on the river, kind of pumps?
What size and brand. These are all military valves.

Next is paddles. With four boats to outfit we are looking at quite a few.
(Remember I am a poor fish cutter and have to keep the wife happy)
I am thinking about cheap at first and replace with time. My question is length.
When rafting out west I used a longer 'guide stick' but I don't know what length it
was. Also, what length for the minions in the front of the boat?

Last is storage questions, Roll or fold?
Garage storage for the most part and in the
big truck for "paddling season", provided we have one.
303 - How often? spray and wipe, or spray and leave to soak?
These are hypalon material.

Thanks in advance for the help and rest assured there will be more inquisitions to come.

[GN YAKN]

No Help Here! Just more quesitons!!!

Storage: Is it preferable to deflate or keep inflated?

Mildew: Is there anything that will spark up the appearance of an 'older' raft without messing up the adhesives that hold the beast together?

Dave

[Deuce]

I have an older hypo bucket boat with the military valves. I inflate it as much as possible with a cheapie twelve volt pump as you described then top it off with a K pump. The K pump fits the military valves well and is nice to have on multiday trips. I highly reccomend the K pump gauge as well. When I started checking pressure I discovered I had been under-inflating. Should be doing 2-2.5 by the way. You can store them however you want. I just keep mine loosely rolled under a camper shell. Hypalon rolls up pretty well, and it's fine to store them rolled.

[okieboater]

lemme give some opinions on rafts. Everyone has their own opinion and it depends on what the owner thinks works for them.

I think it is generally best to store a raft partially inflated in a dry covered barn. Few of us can do this. I stored my Aire rafts loosely rolled in a cedar storage shed for years and no problems. Always stored and transported in a NRS raft storage bag for the raft and JPW bags for the cat tubes. Just be sure the rafts are nice and dry before rolling and I roll mine loosely. On the Aires, I open the zippers and let them dry out well after the last trip of the season. Otherwise let them set in the shade to drain the zippers a couple days or so after each use.

The most often used paddle raft paddle I see is the Carlise units. There are several grades with the outfitter generally being considered the best. Other than the Carlise, what ever you have seems to work. Paddle length depends on the tube size. Bigger the tube longer the paddle shaft. Been my experience that rafts take longer paddle shafts than most canoes take.

I like the dual pressure K pumps the best for on raft top offs. Mainly cause of the size. The big tube style hand pushed pumps work well altho they are bigger to store and it helps to have some one to hold the hose nozzle in place. Check NRS web store for their unit and the better brands. I have also seen the foot pumps work well. Bottom line, your choice on top off pumps.

I hear all sorts of opinions on 303. I love the stuff for gaskets. On my Aires I just used Ivory flake soap and water to wash off the grime as needed. Mostly just washed them down with water. Never put 303 and the tubes looked fine after many years of use. I think the 303 would be nice just never spent the money. Advise that you let it dry well if you do put it on as it creates a slick surface for a while.

What brand raft did you buy? PVC or Hypalon - both are good, slightly different care recommendations for each.

A key care procedure in my opinion is to take the time to rinse out the sand after each use. Sand grains get in the seams and folds and friction during transport lets them sandpaper the material big time. Best is to have a bucket and one of the water fight shooters to get the sand off at the take out, otherwise do a touch up at home for sure. Get the sand out and air dry well to prevent mildew on any raft fabric that can mildew. A big help is to buy a cheap tarp to use as a rug for the raft at the take out. Put a guard on the tarp if you spread it out early as others will put their rafts on it before you get yours down. Having a tarp for protection is a big time help for cleaner rafts and well worth the problems. I used a WalMart special and they last for a long time with minimal care. Just rolled it up, secured with a bungee cord and stuck in the truck somewhere out of the way.

My opinion here but I think most raft damage occurs in transport. So, rinse, air dry, loosely roll and place the raft in a storage bag at the take out. NRS makes great ones. Get a large storage bag as the rafts never roll up as small as it will when it comes to you from the manufacturer. Be sure the raft is not subject to friction rubs during transport.

Hope this helps. Like I wrote earlier, every one has an opinion on raft care so take a look at all the opinions and make up your own mind.

[mgood]

If you are airing up multiple rafts, then you do not want o go manual. You can buy a car-charger air pump that will treat you nicely, and if I owed just one raft I would buy it over the manual if money was no option.

Store your rafts inside if you can. You need to sprinkle baby-powder over the raft when deflated (if rolled up in any way), especially when hot (otherwise, left alone in a hot garage in June, rubber can melt pretty quickly). Most people don't do this, and I have no idea why not- it only furthers the longevity of the raft and wipes off when wet.

If you're guiding, then you'll want a longer paddle. Really, it won't matter what length it is, but most guides tend to prefer longer ones. Everyone else- go cheap canoe paddles. They'll all break or get lost eventually so why pay top dollar?

I was a guide on the Ocoee in 2009, hence my strong opinions. There's some other guides on here from out east and a lot from Colorado- you'll get some more info if they check the board anytime soon.

[Clif]

folks at Aire told me the most common damage is indeed transport and storage issues.. main one being rodent damage. Get anything that smells good to them off your boat before putting away. May not be a problem in your storage area.

[Fish]

Extra, free advice: don't run into sharp, pointy things.

- Fish

[GN YAKN]

Rodents are definitely an issue in my barn! In spite of my efforts. May have to get over my feline prejudice and get a cat! Need a mouser on steroids, but, they tend to eat song birds as well, so can't get past that on top of my loathing of cats!!!

The rodents in my barn seem to focus their attention on my personal items. I reached down to grab my kayak one day and the front grab loop was gone. Looked for the back loop and it was gone as well. Durned rat ate it.

I think it was a territorial dispute rat vendeta! He/she picked my favorite personal item and ate it!

Bob Merchant once got to the put in on the Frog and inflated his raft only to find his day was over before it began as a rat had chewed a hole in a tube while it was rolled up and stored in his barn. That is why I'm leaning towards storing it inflated. And I might even get a cat....maybe I can hire Mongo on a temporary basis......

[Roger]

Long-term storage-inflated partially
short-term-rolled is appropriate if dry

paddles-Carlisle blades are strong, inexpensive, and dependable
paddle length-Minimum of 58'', probably 60" is better (gotta be able to reach the water without leaning down in an awkward position

Primary pump-Coleman makes a rechargeable pump that is effective and will inflate at least 2-3 large rafts per charge

Mine looks something like this



K_pump from NRS is good for on the river

My $.01 worth

[okieboater]

Hey Dave,

Get a couple of cats, just one is a start but to get the job done right you will need a couple so they can help each other - sounds like you have at least a two cat issue.

I am a dog and cat person. Love and enjoy both around the house.

Long story, but at one time we had 4 rescue outside cats protecting our house. During the day they were outside, Francine would call them and they spent the night in our garage. Our house was totally mouse, snake, lizard, squirrel free - zero. All four passed due to old age and I miss those guys a bunch. Now I have the little mouse traps all over the attic and cedar storage shed.

We also have and had a family dog during that time and have one now. The dog is friendly, will bark if intruders show up and is the yard guard for possums and raccoons who share our neighborhood big time. He is zero on mouse, snake, squirrel control however.

But, to take care of the rodents - good cats cannot be beat.

Hope you give a couple nice rescue mouser cats the opportunity to help take care of your gear!

[Shep]

Paddles:
62 or 64" is not too long if you are in the back.

[robkanraft]

I store my boats lightly inflated. For me, no garage so I carry them folded down the stairs to the basement and blow them back up. Wife thinks I'm crazy. I believe off-river transport is the most dangerous part of an inflatable boat's life. You have to be constantly on guard for friction, rubbing, and hard edges. If uou trailer, and watch the air pressure in your tubes, because if you don't bleed them on a hot day they can go boom! My single worst moment was a folded boat vibrated enough on itself in transport to out a serious rub wear to a thwart, thus my preference to transport on a trailer. Hypalon boat boats roll OK, but plastic PVC boats are a pain to fold or roll imo.

Expensive as it is, I think 303 works on Hypalon boats and will lengthen life and improve appearence. I use a battery powered LVM pump at launch sites for total inflation, NRS has a knock off that costs less and is probably better built, or at least warrantied. There also a low pressure inflator out there that runs off your car battery for around 40 bucks, not fast but it works. I have also use a reverable vaccuum cleaner. Close to home, I trailer my boat, I think it is safer on the trailer than folded in my van, plus it is easy to make mistakes at teh put-in, easier to have inflated an d ready to go.

[Ryan Center]

I have a frame you can borrow anytime u want. Should fit your raft nicely.

[Walter Felton]

We clean our boats before storage with dish washing liquid and baking soda . This process removes any food particles or sugar from spilled drinks thus reducing the possibility of rodent damage.

We also store our boats inflated in a temp controlled storeroom. This help ensure the are completely dry avoiding mildew or mold.

EAT WATER

[Eric Esche]

Thought that I would mention that big black ants and other insects can also destroy a raft in storage. I lost 2 hypalon bucket rafts one winter inside a sealed metal storage building on a pallet with a cover over the rafts and a mylar pad on top of the pallet. I hindsight I should/would have soaked the wooden pallet and not just sprayed the perimeter of the building inside and out with insecticide.

Hypalon rafts roll up and reinflate just fine, but partial inflation is better for PVC.

As a guide, you will want a longer paddle with a bigger blade surface area than anyone else in your raft to correct for all of their mistakes. It also gives you a longer reach with the "T" handle to pull someone back in to the side of the raft who failed to listen to you on how to stay in the raft. Carlilses paddles work ok for everyone else. Use what ever you can afford for them to break or lose. They will break and lose paddles.

Putting Dupont 303 anywhere you sit would generally be considered a mistake as it will make most raft fabrics slicker than you want them to be where you TRY to sit. Rubbing with talc can reduce this slickness, but know of others who used softscub and a green scrubby it became so slick, but I would not recommend using those unless desparate. Same for floor area where you want to brace your feet if you think about it. Some people like foot cups, some do not. If you are about my leg length, I like them if they are not open toe-ed.
That said - Hypalon likes 303. Spray and leave on as long as you can. and then use a squeegee to move it around somewhere else that needs it, rather than soak it up in a cloth that you will not get it back from. As expensive as it is, I've wiped it into a puddle and sucked it up in a syringe to go somewhere else after moving the raft around. Have had others tell me this would not work, but I showed them to locations and to tell me wheich was a first time and which was recycled 303 and bother were just as slick, but that might not work as well if the rafts were dirty. Mine were cleaned by me prior to storage and black to begin with.


Old used reversable vacuum cleaner works great as a low pressure inflator at home or on the road if you have a big enough inverter on your vehicle, but you will still need something to top it off to final pressure. Large diameter pumps usually take two people (one to hold the hose to the valve and close it) and will also work as a large volume inflator. On old previously repaired rafts that it is possible that you might have to patch on the river to get home, I'd want a big volume pump. Bellows foot pump let's you pump and hold the hose ot the valve at the cost of taking longer. Our commercial raft trips used to take one of each for a 6 raft trip wrapped in black roll top bags to keep them from hurting anyone who fell on them in the very front of the raft. Avon pumps used to be built strong and last a long time for high dollar item, but then everything from Avon was expensive. I'd check with NRS to see what they have. I have a 35 year old Avon foot pump that I need to find a hose for, but it still works just fine.

Beware of pressure increases in hot sun. This can cause you to blow a seam or blow a chamber to chamber diaphram, both expensive to repair. If you want to run with taught tubes, keep hitting them with cooling water. Wet tubes are cooler than dry tubes. Darker color rafts get hotter faster than lighter colored rafts.

Flip lines are great when you need them, but can be a safety hazard when you don't. Keep them coiled and wrapped or in a bag when not in use. In this same line, I will not own a raft with perimeter lines. Seen too many people get hurt using them.

Virtually everything you could use on mildew and do any good would attack the hypalon as well, but you can try a small sponge of diluted bleach with eye protection and then rinse, dry and treat with 303. Could also try hydrogen peroxide with same program of protection, rinse, dry, and aftertreat with 303.

As far as how often to use 303, every three months if they see light of day, most days, otherwise once-twice a year if used less. Most folks do not apply it in the winter months when it is cloudier and the sun is not as strong.

Most dangerous thing in a raft is another rafter and their paddle. If you guide paddle raft, teach your crew how to fall IN the raft while holding their paddles outside of the raft and how it is better to fall on the fatter posterior parts of their body, rather than most of the other parts. IF you raft, wear a helmet on anything beyond flat water.

If you make your own pump (and this can be done by you like you made your own potatoe gun), Habitat for Humanity's Restore had some nice hose for sale last week and probably still do. Get an 8 to 10 foot length to make filling the pump easier and it can also protect the pump and everyone else when wrapped arond it and held there by a inner tube strap. Got some scrap coated fabrics (rolls of it) I can give you if they were not thrown out by Susan if you want to go with a "flap seal diaphram design. Ask and I will dig in basement.

Best way to jelly roll a raft that I found, was to after rinsed out for sand, to fold in thirds( left and right on center lengthwise, and then to roll from end and secure with a braided nylon 5/8th inch rope around it, which also doubled as it painter.

Vibration in transport will shorten the life of a raft if dirty on on a rough and/or dirty surface. Sand is probably the worse after small stones. That "Oh, I'll just clean it when I get home" attitude combined with a rough wood trailer or any sharp edges anywhere, will make for more maintenance time down the road. Distance, frequency, and size of dirt all matter.

Knew someone whose slack and poorly supervised kids rolled up three washed bucket rafts before they were dry along with many leaves that had blown into them after a storm came up before they were deflated. Would not have mattered if they had been used the next weekend, but they did not get used from October to March and in 6 months the wet leaves in the black rafts (that were also left outside in Atlanta on the south side of a house and some how never put in the basement which was sort of full), decomposed and their by products attacked the fabric and the glues enough to be unusable the next season. $800 rafts when new as I remember, but the rafts were not new, maybe 3rd-4th season, but still expected to last a long time. What made it worse was seams in floor and running length of side of tube across chambers did not fail immediately upon inflation, but waited a while until farther than you wanted to walk home from. Materials analysis by manufacturer and an independent lab both said acid from leaves attacked glue and showed signs left in raft material seen in microscope where discolored. Rafts had numbers and it was written down in gear logs and remembered that they had stunk when unrolled and had to be washed out before they could be used. After that, gear storage was done properly by trained staff.

Eric