Buying Canoe, Need Advice

[R_Corter]

1.Paddling Skills: Intermediate, but learning fast.

2.Canoe Knowledge: Not up to par yet but I am learning, Just havent paddle enough different boats to get the feel of different styles( rocker and stability) and the way they handle.

3.Canoe's we've paddled: 16' Buffalo in whitewater, Ponca - Kyles last March, Gauge at Ponca was 4'(No Dumps, Had her loaded to the gills too).
We own a Old Town Discovery 174 (bought used). Have had it in Lower Buffalo Memorial weekend(Hwy 14 BR. - Rush) and in Small lakes practicing strokes and turns.

4.What we want out of a canoe: Tandem Paddling( me and wife),Whitewater up to class III capabilities( prob be mostly on class II as we will be doing most of our trips in AR), handle large loads as we like to trip overnighter's and then some. I think I can get a what I need in most 16' or bigger canoe's.

5.Her and ME: Im athletic and have excellent ballance. Just to give you an idea on my balance last year in our disco 174 at Rush I took the wife bowfishing. I paddle and shot from a standing position the whole time. The wife has good balance in a canoe also. I didnt know if she would cause she has never been involved in athletics or sports. She is doing very well though. I honestly thought when we got to Ponca last year and seen the river, we were gonna get wet. We never dumped though, the other two with us went swimming twice.

6. Price is of concern. We dont want to break the bank. Mabey when all the kids are gone we can cash in the savings and spend a bundle on one.


We are looking at buying more canoe's because we have 5 kids and another on the way(last one!). Our three oldest are old enough to paddle and would like to get them started. We want the canoes to be suited for our needs as well as the kids. We like the disco 174 but have not had it in whitewater yet. I understand they handle it very well. It is oil canning bad though. I figure because of the large flat bottom. It also very heavy. I think would like to get a royalex canoe this time as they are lighter. We want a faster or easier to paddle canoe. I understand the oil canning can hender speed and ease of paddiling.


Canoes we are looking at,

Arkota- From Two Brothers Canoe.
Length: 16'
Rocker: 4"
Width: 34"
Depth: At Bow 24" Center: 13.5' Stern 24" Weight:74LB. Estimated Carrying Capacity: 750 LB.
Cost $850
Really looking Hard at this canoe!
Pros: Has the best price Ive seen in its class. American made Here in Arkansas. Has an Excellent review on this forum By Al Donaldson. Apparently they will modify the canoe for you upon your order.
Cons: I havent paddled it, but it looks very similar to a 16' Buffalo which I have paddled.

16' Buffalo-Buffalo Canoes
Length:16'
Width:36"
Depth: At Bow 25" Center: 13.75"
Weight:72lbs
Carrying Capacity: 700Lbs
Pros: I have paddle this canoe. It handles well in whitewater. It is also made here in Arkansas.
Cons: Cost more than the Arkota. The 16' Buffalo is $1000.


Appalachian- Old Town Canoe
Length: 16'
Width: 35"
Depth: 15" at center
Weight: 67lbs
Carrying Capacity: 1400lbs
Pros: Double the carrying capacity of the other two canoes i've listed. Has excellent reviews on paddle.net. It is a little lighter than the other two canoes Ive listed.
Cons: Cost considerably more than other two canoes at $1400-$1600

I am leaning towards the Arkota at this moment. Let me know what you think. I am open to consideration of other canoes as well. I know this is long and Its only my second post. I wanted to include all my information about me and hope we get too canoe with some of you soon.

Thanks,
Randy Corter

[Shep]

Quick thought: Trying to buy a tandem overnight tripper and wanting to run class III are mutually exclusive. It sounds like the tandem tripping is more important, so I would suggest you consider trying out some boats at the Mulberry or Piney. If you can get down the river there, and it works for over-night tripping, you've probably found the best middle-of-the-road option.

Hope this Helps,
Shep

[GutIt]

Excellent post, Randy, and welcome to the Board.

Clear and concise. You seem to already know what you want out of a boat and how you will be using it. Half the battle as they say!

I am predicting you will get some insightful responses from this. I can already tell you that the advice you will be getting is “demo, demo, demo”! And that would also be mine.

I have only paddled one of your choices. The Buffalo. I liked it for what you are asking of it. They are very popular boats at that price point. Stable, handle well, can carry a load, and have decent speed. I don’t own one but have friends who do. I have seen these boats on up to 7 day expedition runs and they carried the mail. No complaints by the boaters.

Don’t rule out Mohawk. They are locally built as well and I have one of their Intrepids that was built in Ought ’75 that is still rocking.

Rather than give you a rundown on the boats you are looking at, since I have little experience with all but one, let me instead mention an alternate option.

For my Chuckwagon, I splash a 17’er. It is a Mad River Freedom 17. They have been discontinued for some reason and are extremely hard to find for sale used. For good reason. No one wants to part with theirs!

But more to the point. For what you are asking from a boat, I would encourage you to not exclude a 17’ royalex boat.

From your post, I take it that you guys like to “load to the gills”! I’m the same way for expedition and tandem ‘nighter scenarios. You will find that the same amount of gear that you stuffed into a 16’ “loaded to the gills” will fit much better and more streamlined into a 17’er. Its not that you can carry more because of the extra foot (really, 6” per end), but that the boat is configured better for hauling what you have. Thwarts are positioned better to hold those larger dryboxes, coolers, and large drybags (kids?), and you won’t have to stuff so much in the ends. Way better for both (all) boaters.

Naturally, they will handle the same load better than a 16’ because of the displacement in the drink. Longer means the boat will ride higher due to a bit more volume (less displacement), and more importantly a better load configuration, which makes your gear fit more comfortably in the boat which means even more stability. And you can see over the pile of stuff in the middle!

So, is there a trade-off? Probably. Will you notice it? Depends.

With the same load, a longer boat will be faster, float higher, and any of today’s designs get more stable with a load.

Will it be as maneuverable? Well, that is up to the boater. And just as an aside? I have had my 17’s in western Class III’s loaded. If you would like to boat Class III’s locally and seriously, then you will probably be better off in another class of boat. And that will be sans gill load.

I find my 17’s to be just a responsive as the 16’s due to the above displacement theory (with a good hull design). I can change direction quickly, but what is more, get good acceleration and top end speed. Maneuverability is a matter of directional change plus acceleration/speed. (I won’t even get into rocker for this since you are basically looking to have a recreational/all-purpose boat. And rocker becomes less an advantage and more of a liability as the boat is loaded more and more. Especially on our local rivers. And especially if you want to boat in low water. (See above displacement theory). Then in the Flats, the boat will also be less of a pain to muscle through since a longer, less rocker’d boat will track +speed. A mild rocker on the type of all–purpose boat you are looking at will serve well.

As for “demo, demo, demo”? Bring all of your gear to the demo. Paddle the boat light, then gill it and paddle it some more. Tandem, then end for end and solo. Stick with Royalex rather than poly. I’m not a huge fan of wood on a canoe. It looks awesome, but I don’t like to strip and refinish it every 3 years. Don’t worry about specified load limits as per manufacturer. Real use is where it’s at.

Get that mob you got going on out there! And let us know your choice and give us a review!

I’ll be looking forward to seeing your bunch on the water, Randy!

[ckuntz]

My opinion :)

Appalachian is superior is every category to other tandems exept price..
Price is very important of course, but speed, seaworthiness, maneuverability, volumn, is top notch. Probably not as initially as stable as some others, but final stability is superb.
It is also bomb proof. My father and I wrapped in a tree on the mulberry three years ago.. had some creases but that's it.
Lots of volumn throughout the boat and stretched through the ends deflect big water better than the more pointed ends of the Buffalo canoe.
One other con to the Appalachian is wind tends to tug on all that volume in the boat. Very fun to solo paddle, but flat water with any wind is a struggle.

Long answer, but I love this boat
Chris

[Cowper]

Wow, really good job of giving us the background to help us give better answers! I thank you for that.

On the Appalachian, I have no doubt that it is a good canoe, but don't make your decision based on carrying capacity alone. There is no recognized standard for rating the capacity, so while one manufacturer might say a boat carries say, 700#, another maker of a very similar canoe might call it 1100#. If the boats are the same length and the same width, their capacities are probably pretty similar. You could look also at the width a few feet in from the bow; if one boat holds at near the full width for more of its length, while the other tapers in more, then of course that will make a difference in a "same length" boat's capacity, but i seriously doubt a same length boat carries twice the load. My guess would be that one was rated at say, a "6" waterline" while the other was rated at a "4" waterline", or some similar difference. If you really loaded the boat to 1100# you probably be close to sinking it.

If you assume that the boat has an "average" width of 30" over 14' of it's length, then each 4" deeper it sinks adds over 700# to the "rated" capacity. But you really don't want to paddle a boat that is loaded until you have only a few inches of freeboard remaining.

It seems you're really moving towards a "fleet", so get one of each. A 17' will help haul the gear for the overnight trips; a couple of 16' boats will be a bit easier for the kids to handle on those trips. Which ever 16' turns the best is the one you outfit with airbags and use for unloaded day trips on spicier whitewater runs, where maybe all the kids don't go. Throw in a couple of used kayaks, possibly even sit-on tops, and take the kids on those trips too. (I generally prefer sit-in kayaks, but I can see where the sit-on-tops would have some advantages for a situation like yours.)

[GutIt]

But you really don't want to paddle a boat that is loaded until you have only a few inches of freeboard remaining.

Freeboard.

It ain't just another LYNYRD SKYNYRD tune~!

[Clif]

i must beeee paddlin on nooowwwww


oops sorry

retired rental Buffalos are easy to get from outfitters. I have seen ones with re enforced ends with plenty of river miles left in em sell for 250 to 350. Gave 2 for mine but had to work on it a bit. An idea for now, upgrade as finances allow

[Roger]

Quick thought: Trying to buy a tandem overnight tripper and wanting to run class III are mutually exclusive. It sounds like the tandem tripping is more important, so I would suggest you consider trying out some boats at the Mulberry or Piney. If you can get down the river there, and it works for over-night tripping, you've probably found the best middle-of-the-road option.

Hope this Helps,
Shep

Ever paddle a Bluehole OCA? Buffalo overniters, Section III of the Chattooga, French Broad, Nantahala, Locust Fork, etc.

But these days, Shep is pretty much on since they don't make the Blueholes anymore.

[Randy Dodson]

I've owned a shorter version (Cascade) of the Appalacian for 13 years. It has run miles and miles of Arkansas class II+ like Snow Creek run, the Piney, etc. and even more miles of slightly easier WW like the Mulberry and Illinois Bayou. It's more high performance on WW than a Buffalo or Arkota. Not that those 2 boats are bad by any means. Our Cascade also does double duty as my son and daughter paddle it loaded on family canoe camping trips on easy rivers like the Buffalo and Current.

A 16' Buffalo or an Arkota will be faster and an Appalacian will turn easier. I like boats that turn easy.

Test paddle all 3 boats and see which one suits you best.

Another boat which seems like it might fit perfectly for you is a Prospector. We-no-nah, Nova Craft, Esquif, and Bell all make royalex versions of the Prospector. Pricey though unless you can find a used one for sale. It's WW worthiness will be somewhere between a Buffalo and an Appalacian.

[Jaytee]

Buy used and get two boats.

Because I do think there is no one do-it-all canoe. We bought a WW tandem (Dagger Dimension) used, and a used Buffalo to camp out of, I bought a used solo WW canoe, and the only canoe I bought new was my Mohawk Odyssey (wanted a moving water solo camping boat and was just striking out on the used market) and even then got a good deal on a blem.

If you want to both go tripping and go WW up to Class III, you'll just enjoy yourself so much better with multiple boats so you can have one specific for your purpose.

[plaidpants]

For my two cents.

I have paddled with Gut It numerous times in the Ozarks and also went with him out west on 5 day trips. He and I both have Mad River Freedom 17"s and that boat will haul a lot of gear and also is a very good Class III runner. Not saying that is the boat for you because you have to DEMO and find what you feel fits you.

I also used to own a Mad River Explorer 16. If you can find a Royalex Explorer these are also excellent boats. The ones I find mostly today are poly boats which are heavier and do not hold patches well if a puncture or crack.

One fine day I had a Buffalo 16 and I do mean I had that boat loaded a bit more than I should. I had to lean to the side to be able to see where I was going. This is also a good Class III boat but is rather heavy. Another thing with the Buffalo is it has high bow and stern. Very difficult to manuever in high winds.

The only thing I would have to say is a must for ease of repairs is to buy Royalex. Royalex is lighter, doesn't crack as easily, and can be repaired with patches that will not fall. A poly boat is usually heavier and unless welded the patches will eventually fall off. My first boat was a Mad River Explorer 16 TT. It was a poly boat. I could not get skid plates to stay on. The boat was about 10lbs heavier than Royalex. 10lbs. doesn't seem like a lot till lift a boat of the same with Royalex. Makes a big difference. Buy Royalex if anyway possible.

[R_Corter]

Thanks for all of the responses! Everyone has been a big help! I will update after our decision.