Arkansas Canoe Club Forums

OK, I will take the plunge here as this is a new discussion based on the long term much written about poop systems as started by Richard McFadden on his Leave No Trace Camping thread.

I think the discussion ended with general agreement that both the Wag Bag and Eco Safe with Rocket Box systems had their place in containment of poop on river trips.

If memory correct, the discussion ended with GutIt wondering about poop carry out management other than river trips.

I have had a lot of experience out west on multi day river trips with poop management and due to the weather out there stuff discarded will remain for a long long time. I fully support the carry out requirement for river trips.

I do not have much recent experience with hiking out west or anywhere for that matter. When I was hiking mostly back east in the Smokey Mountains, the practice was to dig a "cat hole".

I do not have the answer for a law requiring poop carry out for hikers, hunters, fisherpeople, bird watchers etc. Seems to me that enforcement would be really difficult. Maybe more training for the public for voluntary carry out is a good way to start.

Let the discussion begin.

Let me just state for the record before I officially enter this discission that my concern is waste management on river trips only at this time and at no time did I ever state otherwise. Nor did I ever even mention hiking.

My bad.

I just threw in the hiking idea to add to the discussion fun factor. I know we have a lot of hikers and I can just picture them with a big ole rocket box strapped on top of their already overloaded pack.

I agree, Waste whether human or otherwise is a bad thing to leave behind our travels.

Thankfully, we got a little bit of rain. More is needed to get us all out boating or hiking along our favorite stream!!

Here is a quote from a World Renown as well as an Internationally Famous boater whom I hold in high regard:

My guess is most of the general public would never spend much time thinking about how to handle poop other than flushing their toilet. When a person gets away from flush toilets, waste management becomes a part of each day's activities.

Truer words may have never been spoken and I want that quote carved on my tombstone!

In fact, my guess is that most of the “general public” won’t spend much time thinking about this even when they are on the water away from flush toilets. The land mine problem confirms this theory. And this is where I see the heart of the problem.

The recommended method of human waste disposal on our local rivers today is the cathole, and always has been. Now whether you believe that catholes are a proper and safe waste disposal technique or not is not the issue I am addressing. And I’ll put aside the sheer volume of traffic our rivers are seeing and the sheer volume of catholes it would take for even one seasonal weekend of one year when there are hundreds and hundreds of people on the water. For now.

It is my contention that catholes simply don’t work and for one reason.

They can’t possibly work if the general public won’t use them.

There is simply no way to enforce the “recommended” waste disposal method that is in place right now. As evidenced, the “general public” is just not going to do it of their own accord. We have to get away from “recommended” (read: do it if you feel like it) and go with “required” (read: do it or run the risk of fine). I am the last one to be in favor of more rules, regs., laws, fines, etc. invading our lives, especially our river lives, but I truly believe that without mandatory Waste Management requirements in place, the resources we want to protect from this scourge will never be protected and we will continue to see the gravel bars and banks abused as open toilets. And the Waste Management requirements I am referring to are “Carry It Out Requirements” and nothing short of that. And that would mean carrying a Waste Management system of the types described in the other thread.

I don’t think it is at all unreasonable to be expected to comply with safe, practical, acceptable Human Waste Management requirements and to be checked for compliance. We are already routinely checked for glass, lashed coolers, koozies, mesh bags, Styrofoam, etc. as it is and this is supposedly for the sake of pollution prevention in and on our Rivers. I have to wonder why in the world we wouldn’t want Human Waste carried out, as well. If it isn’t enough that it’s an eyesore, like a beer can, keep in mind that it’s a biohazard for cryin’ out loud! I can pick up a beer can and carry it out. Not so much with a pile of… well, you get the drift!

Unfortunately, I don’t think there is any amount of education that is of broad enough scope, or far reaching enough to alleviate the problem and/or compel the “general public” to voluntarily comply. If there were, there would be no need for mandatory Waste Management requirements anywhere in the country. Not that I think said education wouldn’t be beneficial by any stretch, but I think the reality is that it is going to take having actual requirements in place to make a significant difference in reversing the present problem.

I realize that to make a change of some magnitude always encounters resistance. And I am not naive enough to think that this can magically happen overnight. Nor do I think that there would not be problems to contend with and details to sort. And I don’t even think that there would necessarily be 100% total compliance though that would certainly be the goal. But I do think that it would eliminate a very significant percentage of the problem and that would be a huge improvement over what we are presently seeing. It works in other areas of the country, has for years, and it can work here for us too.

I am confident that it can be done if we want it to be done and if we think it needs to be done. And I think as responsible boaters and River Lovers; it is going to be up to us to lead the way. And there is always a way. If we don’t, then who will?

My name is Terry, and I approved this message. (Sorry, I just couldn’t resist!)

GutIt wrote:The way I see this issue, the point is not what is used where “out west”……
My questions are why don’t we have mandatory waste management requirements (i.e. Carry It Out) here at home like they do “out west”, isn't it about time we got them implemented, and how could we (or one) go about doing so?

Well, I was trying to stay on the sidelines this time since I felt like I already said my say in 2007/2008 when the original thread first started.

Why don’t we have mandatory waste management requirements here at home like they do “out west”?

1) Our environment is somewhat more tolerant of the problem and capable of “breaking down” the wastes in a shorter time period due to our relatively higher humidity and moisture levels.
2) “We’ve always done it this way.”
3) The public wouldn’t accept it / we could never enforce it.
4) Insert other reason or excuse here.

Isn’t it about time we got them implemented?

In my opinion, yes. I think it is great that some of those posting on this thread are already voluntarily doing this and setting a good example for others, but if we want to make a noticeable dent in the problem, it must be a rule that applies to all uses. It won’t do much good if less than 1% of users are doing this on a “volunteer only” basis.

How could we go about doing so?

The first step has already been taken. In this thread http://forums.arkansascanoeclub.com/vie ... 48&p=89805" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I encouraged folks to comment on the under-development Buffalo River Management plan. Specifically, I suggested as one comment that people should say something like “Please require overnight visitors to “carry out” all human waste, similar to what is done on Western rivers.” I included this comment in my written comments, and DeBo included something similar in what she sent on behalf of the Arkansas Canoe Club.

Those specific comments did NOT get mentioned in the Buffalo River’s latest newsletter, found here:

http://parkplanning.nps.gov/document.cf ... ntID=34225" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That tells me simply that not enough people agree with us on the need for such a rule. If you want to change that, start by going to read that newsletter – as it notes, there is a continuing opportunity for the public to send in comments. The process is discussed in the newsletter, and there is a promise of further public meetings in the not-too-distant future. If you really mean it, don’t wait for that, send them your comments now. And get signed up for their information updates, so that you can stay involved in the process. If enough of us speak up, this may make it into the final Management Plan.

If it is not made mandatory until deemed such a problem, the previously explained transition and education period will still need to occour, thus the desired effect will NOT begin until the problem is beyond bad.

That make sense? Ounce of prevention? If we wait till someone says.. this is a problem. Expect it to get worse before most comply.

I must plead guilty. Always take paper, but have simply burried it. Perhaps not in the right type of spot everytime tho we try. When a 5 year old sez, it's time to go........

This changed this year for us. Bucket and bag setup.

I, for one, am happy you are having another say in this, Cowper. I, too have had my say in this issue time and again, but I really think it needs to be re-thought time and again until something gets done. I know you know that if we are willing to just let it go and not revisit it and stick to it then nothing will ever get accomplished.

So as long as you are quoting my questions, I would like to pose another one, if I may.

Are there any other avenues, offices, governing bodies, agencies, individuals, etc. that you or perhaps Miss Debo, or for that matter anyone, might know of that we could lobby in addition to the NPS?

Like Cowper said, it’s the enforcement that will be the issue. You have local folks including some of us that will say we have done it this way since Grandpa showed us how. Other’s will simply not care. And then there will be the ones that want to get confrontational with an outfitter or Ranger or one of us who support it.

I agree with stating with the overnighters. But I’ll bet more than half the problem is with day users. No matter who is doing the do we need to come up with a practical way for everyone to carry out their poop. And by practical I mean, if an outfitter has 200 canoes and he has to provide a toilet system of some sort to call of his renters that becomes a problem how do make sure they will stay in the canoe if it tips, how will you know if they used it.

On western river trips for me anyway it is about respect. I respect that the guy in front of me did the right thing and I respect the guy behind me for doing the right thing. My first time out there I was laughing all the way out because I just didn’t get it. But once you are there are realize how pristine the place is you totally understand. I came back with the same respect for the Buffalo. So until we can get the general public to respect this river the way we all do it will be an uphill battle.

I was talking to a friend of mine who does not paddle the other day. And he said, A bear poops in the woods. I said, he lives there. Would you want someone to come open the door and poop in your living room?

Education and lobbing for taking the poop off the river will be the key!

I have a groover that anyone in the club is more than welcome to try out. I just ask that you use a lot of Pam before you start and you bring it back not smelling any worse than when you got it! LOL!

Maybe we take a few groovers out on the river on Saturday next spring on a busy weekend. Set them up and let people try them out. Work with the park service to make it a big keep the river clean education. I'd be in for that. May not be the most pleasent job but it would get the idea out there and give folks something to see. I can;t resist it and smell! Man I don’t know somebody smart thing of something! COWPER!!!!

beat cowper too it!

We just returned from a shortened multi-day Texas river trip. There, I had my first WagBag experience. My observation is that the system is a good option, perhaps even better than rocket boxes. The down-side is the limitation on the number of uses before changing... the up-side is the number of uses before changing and the disposal options available after takeout... My vote: require them to be carried on every boat. (Hey! It's no worse than carrying a trash-bag... and probably cheaper than the disposable CPR mask I already carry!!) crane

Like Cowper said, it’s the enforcement that will be the issue. Other’s will simply not care. And then there will be the ones that want to get confrontational with an outfitter or Ranger or one of us who support it.

We are already routinely checked (and enforced) for glass, lashed coolers, koozies, mesh bags, Styrofoam, etc. I have seen any number of people taken into custody for getting too confrontational regarding regulations that are already in place. They are going to get confrontational regardless and the Rangers don’t put up with it. If you are simply in compliance, then there is no need for confrontation. And they will start to care more about it when they are faced with the prospect of a heavy fine just like carrying glass, Styrofoam, no koozies, no mesh bags, no lashed coolers. Simply add Wag Bags or a tanker to the list of checked and enforced items.

And by practical I mean, if an outfitter has 200 canoes and he has to provide a toilet system of some sort to call of his renters that becomes a problem how do make sure they will stay in the canoe if it tips, how will you know if they used it.

The same way beverage cans and all trash is supposed to be handled. In a closed mesh trash bag, attached to the boat, with the used Wags in them. Its obvious if a Wag Bag has been used or not.

So until we can get the general public to respect this river the way we all do it will be an uphill battle.

Well said. And the only way is to add the necessary regulations just like with the glass and everything else. None of those regulations should be necessary. Yet we have to have them because the reality of it is that they are necessary.