Guidance

[MountainMan]

Hello!
First of all I'm new here and have already found the site very informative and enjoyable! Second of all Arkansas is my favorite state for all the activities my family and I enjoy! I grew up paddling "borrowed" canoes every chance I got around Southeast Oklahoma. Now I have a wife and 2 kids and I'm looking at buying a boat for the family.
I've been reading and researching different makes and models of canoes for a while now, and I've narrowed my selection down some but enjoy hearing opinions from all experienced paddlers. My wife and I will be using this boat occasionally for Buffalo River overnighters and other similar rivers, as well as some calm lake water here in North Texas. About all I've determined for sure is that the boat probably needs to be around 17'. Everything else spec wise is up in the air at this point. We're both very athletic and want something that we can grow into so to speak as far as skill level.
We're talking about heading up to Arkansas the first week of November to do some looking around at boats and would like to try a few out while we're up there. What advice can you guys give on where to go and what to try???

Thanks for the insight and sorry for the long first post!!!

Kyle

[Dave Thomas]

The Mohawk Canoe Co. offer a couple of 17' options. The first one is the Nova 17. The Nova 17 is a fast, lightweight, wilderness tripping/touring canoe or a recreational canoe for those who prefer a longer canoe. The same fine characteristics of the Nova 16 only in a longer canoe. Choose it over the Nova 16 where greater room and capacity are required. Again where durability is a concern, choose the Nova 17 in the heavier, more durable, Royalex. A favorite adventure racing teams.
Nova 17-Length:17'. Beam at gunwale: 35”, Beam at 4” waterline: 34”
Depth: bow 21”, center 14.3”,stern 20”. Weight approx. 72lbs. (Royalex), 66lbs.(Royalite). Estimated capacity: 900lbs.

The second 17' boat we offer is the Intrepid 17. The Mohawk Intrepid's are dry, high volume canoes, with slightly arched and moderately-rockered bottoms, they are the most versatile of our canoes. Very stable and dry, they are at home running whitewater rivers or carrying fisherman to their favorite fishing spot. Because of their roomy, full volume, flared ends with extra reinforcing, the Mohawk Intrepid's are the best choice when the canoe will be used in both flat and whitewater. The 17' Mohawk Intrepid has few equals as a stable, load-carrying, wilderness tripper. Both the Mohawk Intrepid 16' and 17' are an excellent, roomy, stable, load-carrying family canoes.
Intrepid 17- Length: 17'3", Beam at gunwale: 37", Beam at 4" waterline: 34.7", Depth: at bow 22", at center 14" , at stern 22". Weight approx: 76 lbs Estimated capacity: 1080 lbs.

I do have both an Intrepid 17 and Nova 17, discounted due to small blemishes, here at the Mohawk-Fort Smith Shop and ready to be built to your specifications. If one of these canoes interests you email me at dthomas@mohawkcanoes.com or pm me and we can discuss further. For more information about Mohawk Canoes visit our website at http://www.mohawkcanoes.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

[Cowper]

I like that you've already done some research, and you're giving very specific information on what you think you want the boat to do. That helps us a lot!

Generally, when someone talks about "growing" on skill level, I would steer them towards a 16' canoe for more moving water maneuverability, because they turn so much easier than the 17’ boats. But you need the extra capacity for the kids, and your intended destinations don’t demand a shorter boat – you’ll do just fine in a 17’ boat.

One of the thing boat designers must balance is speed vs stability. For a given length, a narrow boat is faster, a wide boat is more stable. This is where personal preference kicks in. A faster boat is really nice for lake cruises and easy rivers, but with two kids, maybe camping gear – hard to argue against stability. That’s why you should try to demo if you can, with your wife plus kids in the boat, to see how it handles a full load. Remember, those kids are going to weigh more in a year or two, so you need some “extra” capacity in whatever you buy now. But once they grow more than a little bit, get a solo boat or kayak for the bigger one and that will take your canoe + wife + one kid weight back into the acceptable range.

When you demo, paddle moderately hard, and see how quickly the boat accelerates and how fast it seems to go before you have to paddle really, really hard to go just a little bit faster. This will give you a feel for your "long distance" speed (the one you use when you realize sunset is coming soon and you still have a few miles to go). Then try turning the boat, and see how well the model you're in turns. Rock it back and forth a little bit, and slowly lean to each side to see how stable it feels. You may even be able to detect "primary" and "secondary" stability. (Primary - the initial "tippiness" - Secondary - as you begin to lean further, does the boat get more stabile, or does it want to just tip on over?) Do this one near shore, in warmer weather if possible. You can tell a lot about a boat in the first few minutes.

[okieboater]

Be aware that unless you and your wife are experienced team canoe paddlers, my guess is any canoe all of you get into is going to feel a bit "tiippy" especially until you get some forward speed.

Again, my guess is soon as every one gets accustomed to what ever canoe you guys end up with, the boat will be a lot more "stable".

Welcome to the world of canoes and all the neat places they take us.

[Cowper]

Good point Dave (Okie), thanks for keeping me in line!

When I talked about comparing speed and stability, I should have emphasized that the boats should mostly be compared only relative to other boats being considered as "in the running", not to some "absolute" scale.

Also, re-reading Dave's post, in the Mohawk line-up, I would suggest that MountainMan might lean towards the Intrepid. It is heavier and wider (which will hurt the acceleration and top speed), BUT, it has the tougher material for moving water abuse, and a bit of extra gear capacity which I think is going to be important. Most canoes I've seen with two parents PLUS two kids were at least a little bit overload, even before they threw in the overnight gear.

Another tip - if you compare BETWEEN brands, remember that what one canoe company calls "fast" or "stabile" may be very different than how another company would describe the same model. Most companies have a "core" group of people guiding their designs; the personal backgrounds of those folks will influence all of their designs. If the core group is a bunch of ex-world-class flatwater racers, then the boat that they call a "stable, whitewater model" will be less stable and less suited for whitewater than a "middle of the road" model from another company with a different attitude and background from their leadership team.

In other words, when comparing boat DESCRIPTIONS, compare mostly between boats made by the same company. When you get ready for narrowing it down to that final choice, try to compare the boats ON THE WATER if at all possible, or if not then go to someplace like Paddling.net and read as many user-reviews as you can find.

[Jaytee]

Plenty of folks here know lots more than I do about choosing tandem canoes. I more can speak to being where you are, except we were there a little over a year ago.

One thing I found is that the used market is so good that instead of finding one boat to do two very disparate things (flat lakes and moving rivers), I'd really suggest you consider looking at used boats and buying two.

We picked up a 16 ft. Royalex Buffalo in great shape for $400 on Craig's List and have used it as the river camping barge and LOVE IT. We didn't need anything for lakes but I see lots of lake-type boats (heck, you could even look at aluminum), narrower with more keel, and all that, all over the web for very reasonable.

Instead, we actually bought an additional used canoe with more rocker (more tippy) for more aggressive river paddling, and then took advantage of the great instruction you can get through the canoe club. Then we got hooked on boat buying and then picked up a tandem whitewater boat.

Didn't buy a new canoe until recently ordering a solo blem from Mohawk (because solos are not easy to find used). But anyway, my experience is to suggest buying two boats each dedicated to the purpose you want, buy used, and you'll still spend less than picking up a single brand new Royalex boat from any of the major players.

FWIW.

[Jaytee]

Ooops. Pardon the double post.