So about the Big Piney access...

[SteveGabbard]

The Mulberry thread gravitated towards improvements at the Piney. My question is, what will happen when the Helton's access is compromised?

That access is vital to Moores and all of the "self shuttleers"

Is Long Pool the only FS access on the creek?

[Cowper]

On another thread, Phillips Ford was mentioned, along with the fact that it is currently a 4WD type road. DebMoore puts it at about 3 miles above Heltons.

From map study, it looks like this is FS1802, and might be as much as 4.25 miles upstream, at N35.6223 W93.2166

I think the FS has already considered improving this access, but another 3 or 4 miles added to the run, and a longer shuttle, will make for very long days. Speaking for myself, if Helton's were to become unavailable, I would be more likely to limit most of my Big Piney floats to times when there was enough water to launch on Indian Creek.

Boy, I'm just full of good news, huh?

[waterhog]

theres a road that goes down to craybas cabin just below indian ledge maybe theres some way to have access there of course you would lose a little river

[Randy Dodson]

the first time i ever ran the Piney, my bro-in-law and myself put in at Phillips Ford and paddled to Long Pool at low water. My wife took us up to Phillips Ford and dropped us off so there was no need to shuttle after the run. Still, it seemed like a very long drive to get to the put-in from our camp at Long Pool.

[Flapjack]

What if? Someone that knew the Heltons would ask them to Deed the right of way to the creek to the ACC. If it would take money to get it moving, then past the hat around to all the chapters. You know that the boating community has pretty well supported the Helton the past 25 years and still do contribute. It could be a tax break for them. Just a thought.

[Roger]

I would bet that the Heltons would at least entertain such a proposal such as Flapjack's. Thinking that Kerry and Deb would be the ideal messenger to take any proposal to them since they have worked with them for so long.

[SteveGabbard]

Bingo, you guys are onto the reason I posted this. We can't afford to lose the Helton's access. But if we do we need a backup plan.

Now, not when something happens to the Heltons Access.

I love the Upper Piney. I've paddled it for over 20 years. But I probably would look for alternatives if Heltons was gone and it meant a longer float.

[Clif]

Seems I remember it being posted that some other organization would have to own the land. ACC actually owning it opened up a new can of legal worms that would be big headache$$

I have been known to be wrong, tho

[Jim Krueger]

Maybe buy the right of way and donate to the state to entice the ARG&F to develop a public access that they maintain. Many of the G&F accesses have been very well executed, the access in Glenwood is one of the very best I've ever seen!, and they have many times erected a signage at completion that mentions/honors the landowners; i.e. 'Hinds Bluff' Access on the Little Missouri, etc.

I also agree with Debbie Moore about Long Pool. In my opinion, Long Pool is long been a gem of a camp ground and access but, I think the ramp itself leaves much to be desired and could be a fairly economic focus of improvement, as the campground and facilities are already just fine otherwise. Surely the forest service or ARG&F could reconfigure the ramp to extend a further distance diagonally downstream so it's at a less severe angle and be more useful to vehicles backing down to waters edge.

Jim Moose

[Dave Thomas]

Big Piney Creek is one of Arkansas' premiere whitewater rivers. With that in mind, why hasn't the Pleasant Hill Ranger District done more to increase access to it? With other Districts making access point improvements, I wonder...does the Pleasant Hill District not have the funding to make improvements, any improvements for that matter, to one of it's star attractions? Or are the funds there, but they're being allocated to other projects? It just seems like making improvements on the Piney is a no brainer...so what's the holdup exactly?

[paddlinggoddess]

Speaking as someone who gre up o the Piney. I started paddling with my Dad and sisters in 1981. We had old Applebey Canoes that my did had gotten welded but paddling was something we could all do together. Kaylan got her start on the Piney in a Canoe and was rescued more than once by her ponytail. I love the Piney and have been going there forever it seems. Campground host there for two years2003-2004. Since then I have seen it do nothing but go down hill. The law enforcement is just out to bust people and write tickets for more money. The camprgrund in neglected, and as for improvements don't hold your breath, the Falling water road was suppose to be fixed already. They are short staffed always except on a day when everyone is there then all the sudden you see all the rangers and law enforcement. I don't know what will happen if we lose that acess but Debbie Moore would be the one to talk to about anything to do with access to the Piney through Helton's Farm. The other put in is 4wd and hard to find and like someone said makes for a very very long day. I hardly go to my favorite river in the state just because of all the crap that goes. Hope someone can come up with something since the piney is a great creek for everyone to enjoy and learn on. Hoping things get better.
Sabrina

[Roger]

Just know when they "improved" the access and raised the fees, things went south. Part of the problem is the popularity and the mentality of some populations that now come to experience the creek. It's a lot more popular place to go than it was in 1979. They used to call it progress in the old days.

[Dave Thomas]

What if? Someone that knew the Heltons would ask them to Deed the right of way to the creek to the ACC. If it would take money to get it moving, then past the hat around to all the chapters. You know that the boating community has pretty well supported the Helton the past 25 years and still do contribute. It could be a tax break for them. Just a thought.

That's a great "What if" scenario Flapjack. I don't personally know Ms. Helton. However, I do know she's a sweet 94 year old woman who has supported paddling on the Piney for years. Perhaps she would consider selling/donating a piece of land to the ACC large enough for a launch and parking area. Then, the land could be later handed over to the AG&FC or Forest Service for maintenance/upkeep. Hmmmmmm...what if?

[Crane]

In conversations over the last few years, AG&FC folks have indicated they would be happy to work with ACC and others to improve access higher up on Arkansas streams and rivers. However, since most of their funding for such projects comes from motor fuels taxes they have placed priorities on access to be used by motor-boats... which is not totally unreasonable. They have, in the past, indicated they would be interested in accepting donations of lands for access and in working with folks to improve those access points to some extent, and holding those lands for public uses. They do not, however, want to get into the road-building business in those locations, and do not want a major commitment for serious improvements. They also do not want to be required to staff those points or have much law-enforcement or other commitment that would expand personnel needs. They have said that they might be okay with garbage collection, etc., but...

I believe the ACC and most paddlers would be quite pleased with simply having access to the rivers we love. We don't need fancy ramps or paved roads... in fact, we might choose not to have them if they were offered (an exception might be where we already have camp-grounds, such as Long Pool). All we really need is a passable road and a place to park. So, where does that leave us? Quite simply, it leaves us having to work together, to prioritize our efforts, and to fund purchase of our desired access... and be willing to hand it over to a state entity to hold & hopefully improve a little... Who's willing? Crane

[Crane]

FYI: Here's a list of possible access needs I put together several years ago, for what it's worth...

Cadron Creek:
Within 2 miles Above CCO : In the last 7-10 years, the Cadron has become a primary stream for Central Arkansas paddlers and non-motorized fishing folks. It’s high Class I water, has a number of play-spots and flows when many other streams have lost water levels. It’s close to Little Rock, Conway & Russellville, yet is still fairly unpopulated. Cadron Creek Outfitters closed off access through his property, but a friendly land-owner has opened permissive use across his land several miles up-stream of CCO. Be aware that this access can be shut off at the owner's choice, so we need dedicated access. This upper access (along with the Big Piney access) is the one of the two highest priorities for replacement in the Central Arkansas area.

Cadron Creek:
Pinnacle Springs: Several years ago, someone left Mr. Tilman, the property owner, a present of three dead cows at the put-in on his land that paddlers had always used. He gated the access off the bridge and paddlers have ignored it and pulled over the fence since then. I believe there exists a public easement for use of that put-in… but… The original access at Pinnacle Springs was at the southeast corner via the existing gate. The road used to go all the way to a sandy beach about 1-200 yards upstream and from there to the bridge it was open access -- mostly beer drinking and horse shoe flippin' back then. Mr. John Tilman now owns this land, but is willing to sell only at a premium. He has s re-platted the land for a 20-30 unit subdivision and attempted to sell lots through a realtor in Conway -- several may have been sold. He advised John Svenson (CCO) several years ago that his plan was to "leave the property to his children" and as he has leased the land to oil exploration and drilling. He is in no financial need to unload the property --

Big Piney Creek:
Treat\Helton’s Farm: Helton’s Farm has been the put-in for private and rental paddlers and fisher-folk for many, many years. Mrs. Helton is past 90 years old and is feeble. She no longer lives on the farm, but her son gathers the $3 access fee on weekends from every paddler who puts on there, and there are many paddlers. There is no telling what will happen when Mrs. Helton passes away. Acquiring access either at Helton’s Farm or in the same area is currently the most critical need in Arkansas paddling…

Big Piney Creek: Hurricane Creek
Ft. Douglas
Hwy 123
Twin Bridges: There is commercial take-out at Moore Outdoors. They would like to move access across the river for public folks. They own that land, too, and would possibly be interested in visiting about some arrangement there.

Spring River : In winter, when campgrounds are closed, there are no convenient take-out points below Sadler Falls. A public take-out access point there would encourage year-round paddling and fishing in that area. An intermediate take-out/put-in would also be very desirable.

Illinois Bayou:
Snow Creek: The Snow Creek run on the Middle Fork of the Illinois Bayou begins at an access point about 2 miles up-stream from the Bayou Bluff Campground. I don’t know who owns that land, but it should be public. It has been used for years and makes a fine access for short runs down the Class II run to the highway and then on down to Hector.

Middle Fork: NoGo
North Fork

Buffalo River:
Boxley
Ponca
Hailstone

Caddo River:
Norman
Caddo Gap
Glenwood

Cossatot River
Crooked Creek
Eleven Point River
Falling Water Creek
Frog
South Fourche La Fave

Kings River

Little Missouri River:
Take-out at Hwy 84

Little Red River:
Archey Fork of Little Red
South Fork Put-in
South Fork Culverts
South Fork Swinging Bridge Takeout
South Fork Hwy 95

Mulberry River:
Above Hwy 23
Below Hwy 23

Ouachita River:
Above Lake Ouachita
Dragover takeout

Saline River:
North Fork
Middle Fork
Strawberry River
White River