How To Buy A Used Boat?

[Fish]

Seeing some recent "for sale, used" ads, etc. I am reminded of when I was first in the market for a used kayak. Depreciation in new kayaks and canoes is notorious - they are made of nearly indestructible materials these days with virtually zero moving parts to maintain, but one you "drive" a new one off the showroom floor, the price drops by 20-40%. Most new boats that have been used for a year have more than 9 years to go with even halfway reasonable care, so that's at least 90% of the value left in the boat! Remember, there's likely to be NO maintenance over than 10 year period, and a boat with a bunch of scratches paddles just as good as one without any. So a used plastic kayak may be the best deal in the history of buying used stuff! However there are some things to watch out for when buying used.

So I think it would be great for experienced used-boat buyers to share their experience with new ones. I've seen this in several threads, but those threads quickly drop off the radar. If there are some good responses to this topic, it should be included in the ACC FAQ... which is... I don't know where it is, but we should have one, right? If not, I'll put it on the OWP at least. It's been 10 years since that web site had any new info I bet, so it's overdue and I'll be happy to update it (if I can find that old FTP password around here somewhere...).

My number one bit of advice when it comes to buying used boats:

Sun, not rocks or water, is the enemy (UV light in particular). So ask if the boat's been stored indoors or in the shade vs. out in the sun. Ask how many road trips it's been on (gets lots of sun on the tops of cars). Push on/step on the plastic hard to test it out, bottom of the hull and top. If it flexes big time or too easily (try it on a new boat of similar design for comparison), it may have gotten too much UV. Ask the seller if you can push, stand on it first. If the answer is no, ask why, when that won't hurt a new boat? If it cracks when you press it, you wouldn't want your life depending on it (nor would anyone).

My number two bit of advice: don't sweat the scratches - just make sure they don't go through the hull. :)

- Fish

[Tim Eubanks]

For canoes:
Royalex
Surface scratches OK, deep ones or gouges not so much. A deep scratch or gouge that goes through the plastic into the foam core can lead to dreaded "delamination" if left alone. Delamination can be prevented by using some kind of epoxy or plumbers goop to seal the scratch.

If the boat has bags in it, remove them and look for cracks on the inside of the boat. They too can lead to delamination if water gets into the foam core. Left alone the delamination is like a flesh-eating bacteria. Dr. Dale is an expert at repairing delamination. I've done it once, but the boat hasn't been used much since the repair.

A small area of delamination shouldn't kill the sale but would definitely reduce the price paid.

Attachment points for thigh straps, etc, should be solid. Saddle and any other outfitting should fit or be "removable" to make it fit.

Some more seasoned open-boaters may need to weight in on the new vs old Royalex issue. Those ole Blue Holes hold up well if kept out of the sun.

[okieboater]

I agree do not sweat the scratches.

Big problem is the gouges. Look for a wide and deep gouge anywhere on the boat. IE something maybe 1/8 of an inch wide and more than 1/16 th of an inch or more deep. Make up your own mind if it is too deep.

Scratches on the outside of a boat do not cause me much doubt. Scratches and especially deep ones on the inside do make me wonder.

At the risk of offending many of my fellow creek boaters, these boats deserve very close attention. I know I do a lot of thin water boofs, hit / slide over a lot of rocks, have been known to do less than perfect entries over falls resulting in crushed bow areas and the list goes on. Not saying a person should avoid buying used creek boats just be aware of where the "active" creekers are taking their boats for fun. I would be happy to buy a creek kayak with a lot of scratches but zero or a few gouges.

As the prices of Kayaks are now soaring upward, I find myself looking and buying more and more demo boats and used boats. Like buying a new car, buying a new kayak gives me a very good feeling. However, as Fish sez, after a few trips every boat I have ever owned has a lot of scratches, creek boats the most. Buying used makes a lot of sense in these economic times when disposable income is scarce and getting scarcer.

Here are a few tips that I think makes a kayak last longer.
1. store it inside on its side or in a cloth bag type cover outside.
2. cover all sharp parts of your roof rack with taped thin foam. Those Yakima tower tops will do a number on your kayak. I only use Yakima but am sure other brands have sharp edges as well.
3. tie your kayaks down securely but watch for plastic distortion. I use rope and with a trucker's hitch and not much pull - it is easy to put a bend in the kayak's plastic. Here lately, I have been using bow lines a lot. I used to just run a bow line back to the cross bar, but think that a good bow / stern line setup reduces the need to put excessive stress on the kayak tie downs running over the actual kayak.
4. I know rock spins are fun and creek boaters do a lot of "thin" water boofs. Be aware you are taking off plastic with these moves.
5. Dragging a kayak on grass or soft dirt is not nearly as destructive as dragging it on pavement. Avoid the parking lot pavement if possible.

My experience over the years is Prijon plastic is pretty much bomb proof and even sun proof. On the other hand, my 1996 Dagger RPM Max has the so called cheap plastic and it has been melted on furnace strips, bow totally crushed in on right side piton and only came loose after a day in the hot sun and a very strong kick to the inside after taking out the bulkhead. It is still going strong and is my go to river running and surf fun boat. No telling how many miles now or how many more will be added.
Bottom Line: Even the so called cheap plastic used on most kayaks these days give many years of service. My opinion, it is not the plastic as much as it is the care we give the kayaks that gives us years of use.

[DMG]

In my airframe mechanic days, I used to tap on honeycomb panels with a quarter to check for delaminations. A dull thud sound instead of a ringing sound indicated a delamination. Does that work on Royalex, too?

As for me, I didn't mind buying my current boat new because I had tried enough other boats to know exactly what I wanted. For a first-time boat buyer, though, I think the best idea is to buy any cheap, used boat that fits and get paddling. While you're out there, you can try out other people's boats get a better feel for what you really want. Then, if you can't find a used one, go ahead and spring for a new one. Same thing with paddles. Try different lengths/offsets/brands before spending the bones for a fancy one. I wish that's what I had done. I spent a lot of money experimenting.

~Dave

[Fish]

At the risk of offending many of my fellow creek boaters, these boats deserve very close attention.

No offense taken. :) This is absolutely right. A boat used a year by someone starting out paddling on class 2 rivers is not equivalent to the same boat used a year creekin by Ryan Center. No offense Ryan. :)

Folks who buy used creek boats from me know what they're getting - I tell them. If I didn't they'd probably read or hear about it anyway at some point, since my old boats tend to have stories attached to them. I've sold most of my retired creekers mostly as very cheap "beginner" boats and have told folks to take it easy on them. Of course, most of my retired creekers were retired due to cause. Cause being high impact testing to the point of structural failure.

- Fish

[SteveGabbard]

If possible, try before you buy especially if you are at the upper end of the recommended weight range. Learned that the hard way!

[Eric Esche]

I have three "old" (1972 to 1995) royalex canoes, all Mad River boats. I have seen new royalex boats by other manufacturers that seem to scrape and gouge way more than they ought to on stuff that my old boats laugh at with no marks at all. Given the choice of buying an old royalex boat or a new one, I'd go with an older one any day. I really like royalex canoes, but the newer ones seem to need some more curing.

And put an old Savage up there with any Prijon kayak for having great plastic that survives and keeps on ticking. Susan loves the Skreem.

Eric Esche

[Lupe]

Here's my used boat advice in particular for a first time buyer:

The imperfect used boat that you buy and that gets you out on the water in is a million times better than the perfect boat you keep looking for while NOT getting out on the water.

Which is not to say don't do some research and try to make an informed choice, but there is never a perfect boat, and for most of us, we won't figure out what we REALLY want or need in a boat until we just take the plunge and get out there.

Ah, boat shopping. What fun!

[JBL1026]

I totally agree with everyone, being fairly new to the kayak scene i have been canoeing dad's old blue holes canoes forever. Anyways what i was going to say is I have been looking for that perfect boat ever since i started. From my experience buying used until you find that right boat is the only way to do it. In the last year i have been in search for that boat, and being on my fifth this year i finally bought my first new one. I guess the point i am getting at is with the used boats if you don't like it find another one and sale your current one or become a collector. With the used boats the initial investment is usually affordable and fairly easy to turnover if you don't like. I like how Lupe put it, thats exactly what i did and now after a year of great kayaking I am ready to hit the new year in that perfect boat. Bottom Line get on the water!

Josh

[Fish]

Can we link to this and other informational-type threads from the main web site as a general paddler "FAQ" page perhaps? Who's updating the main site these days? Scott? Tom? Would be nice to have a repository of ACC "wisdom" (notice the quotes) to point people to when they ask a FAQ out here...

- Fish

P.S. the high here in KC Friday is forecast to be 0 degrees. The HIGH. Anyone want to go boating?