OT: Recharge Baby, Recharge!!!

[Prairie Tater]

I really don't want to get another political debate going here, but I've just got to get this off my chest. I'm guessing that most here watched the Republican convention where their new motto, "Drill Baby, Drill" was coined. Is this their answer to the energy crisis? I was really hoping for something better out of them. I'm not sure that I trust their motivation here. Even if we do produce all of our own oil, the oil companies are still going to make out like bandits.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against domestic drilling, however if it does happen, and we reduce our dependance on foreign oil, I'm concerned that we may become complacent and not develop any of our alternative energy sources and set any energy conservation efforts aside.

In particular, I'd like to see us look deeper into developing the electric car, whether it be totally electric, hybrid, or plug-in hybrid. The documentary, Who Killed the Electric Car?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBXLKhwRRuI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; suggests that the auto makers already have the technology and are equipped to produce nonburning gas/oil cars that have been tested in California. If you haven't been pissed off lately, then you really should check it out.

OK, I feel a little better now. Come on Ike!!!

Prater

[Clif]

In his spech Johnnie Mc did say other options must be looked at and given a serious effort. Solar, wind, tidal, nuclear.....I wondered how. Incentives or laws? Why must what seems a no brainer be legislated? Anywho he did not elaborate.

[Jody]

if everyone was given an electric car today, the only problem solved would be less air emissions from tailpipes. but electricity has to be generated from something, right now its coal, natural gas, "nukular", and hydropwer. if we pull foreign oil out of the supply, look for LOTS more of the above (mining, drilling, nukularing, and damming) to fill the gap.

the only real answer is energy efficiency, as its much easier to reduce use than create more supply (and the problems associated with doing so).

Grant

[David Mac]

More mining, daming and nuking are not the only answers to adding energy to "the grid" to make up from dropping oil out of the equation.

Solar and wind are both viable options that are under used and are infinately renewable.

The talking heads rant about how solar only works during the day, but that is only half-true at best. There is a current flaw in the system with being able to store solar power, but the technology to get around that is either all ready available or in the pipeline. The tricky part is getting people to fund the infastructure to make it all work.

[Fish]

While we're on the off-topic of oil and environement, you really need to see this latest explanation of an supposed oil spill from Austrailia:
http://time-blog.com/real_clear_politic ... senat.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Beyond the environment! Why didn't we think of that!

- Fish

[paddledog]

There is power everywhere. Solar, wind, atomic, bioactivity.......
Storing energy is the problem.
Stop arguing over what source is "best...greenest...ect."
If you want to solve the energy crisis develop a better battery.
The BEST we have now are 20% effective.
Your car battery is about 12 - 15% effective.
it returns less than 20% of the energy put into it.
When we get a better battery, we can reduce the amount
needed to charge.

The Prius car has a larger carbon footprint than a Hummer
due to the lead acid batteries it uses. If you need one to
make your self feel better, go ahead. But don't preach to
anyone who knows better.

[Zach]

I thought most of that Prius worse that Hummer stuff was bunk.
Here is an article from a while back about it:
http://www.slate.com/id/2186786
but I'm sure there are others.

Also, are you talking about the whole power cycle from mine to power plant to house to battery? Then it might be low efficiency, but just charge and discharge is pretty high (at least 60%).
Also, the Prius uses nickel metal hydride batteries.

[Fish]

Always interesting how folks treat what they want to believe as fact. That's on both sides of the issue. That old "Dust-to-dust" report was far from a solid engineering analysis, though no one that I know of has put in enough time to really quantify the "footprint" of both vehicles from cradle to grave (here's another reasonable attempt with the opposite result: https://www.rmi.org/images/PDFs/Transpo ... ToDust.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

So, does a Prius out-green a Hummer? It is almost certain a Prius uses less total energy over it's lifetime than Hummer. It uses MUCH less fuel per person for transport just for being a much smaller vehicle (unless the Hummer is packed with people all the time, and you sure don't see that much!). The energy going into battery manufacture is greater than other engine parts, but it's not overwhelming, and the Hummer has a good deal more total mass of materials that are processed. Prius' platics and other lightweight synthetic body and chassis parts take more energy than steel per pound to produce, but there are less pounds used. In the end, the Prius is a lock for overall energy efficiency.

However, it's been pointed out that the mines and processing plants for the nickel in the batteries in a Prius are causing a good deal of environmental damage in Canada, and I'm sure that's right. It is a "point source" relatively speaking, but it's still not very "green." It would take a heck of a lot of work to figure out where other materials and parts for both vehicles came from, and I'm sure nobody's checked on the overall "greenness" of all the suppliers.

So, nobody knows enough to say much of anything other than if you drive a Prius, you'll get way more mpg out of the gas you buy than a Hummer. It's *likely* that a Prius has a big advantage in energy use cradle-to-grave and that it is more envinronmentally friendly too, but those things are very difficult to prove quantitatively.

Stevedog is right about storage being the biggest problem though. While we do need to get a bit better at capturing energy from the sun, wind, etc., we're not doing too badly. As Steve says, there's PLENTY of that kind of energy out there to harness, and we're at a point already at a point where the price of doing so is competitive with fossil fuels (same order of magnitude in cost). But storing (and transporting) electrical energy in particular is something we kinda stink at. Conversion to hydrogen for storage and transportation has it's problems too - it's really amazing that converting to hydrogen and then BACK to electricity (via the very efficient fuel cell) is even close to batteries, let alone exceeds them! A testament to how little battery technology has progressed in the past decades! If we can get better storage and transport of electrical energy, those crazy Texas oil-billionaires wanting to power everything with wind might just have their chance to make the dream come true...

- Fish

[okieboater]

Ole T Boone did not get to be a billionaire or whatever net worth he has by investing his money in the wrong place.

He is spending a lot of money on nation wide TV and radio spots.

Maybe he knows something the rest of us do not.

[gfitzge7]

I am dead in the middle when it comes to the engery crisis. I have seen the effects of a changing climate. That said, I definately think that we need a real eneryg policy. One that takes care of us now, but leaves a better world for tommorrow. That being said, we can not just wish things to be better and expect our politicians to just change things overnight. We will have to find a way to lower energy prices now, drilling etc., but have laws and legislation is place to cut down production now. We can not just drill and say that that is a energy policy. We need to drill to lower cost now and in the mean time develope ways to increase battery efficiency and electric transport for the next couple of years so we benefit later on. If we just drill now there will be know benefit later. If we do not drill and prices keep going up then we will not be able to afford the better technologies later on. We need a balance. I def. do not like the idea of the tar sands in Canada being used. I thought it would be a good idea until I saw arial photos of what was going on. It was horrible. But that is another country not ours, so I guess not our place to judge them.

I def. want our dep. on foreign oil gone. I def. want a REAL energy policy. I just think we need to have a balance. There are many of us who can not just sell our vehicles and then buy a efficient car. I personally want to get a dif. vehicle, but can not right because of how far under I am since my truck dropped in price so much. I love the idea of powering everything with wind. I think that we are at a place in U.S. history where people are ready for this, since this summer we have had the highest fuel prices ever and almost every business is feeling the strain. I think that McCain will want to drill yes, but I do believe he will seek other alternatives too. His voting record proves this, with everything he voted on in Arizona. That is always a tale-tale sign of what one will do in the White House, what they voted on before they were there. I think Obama woud do good things for and energy policy too. I am dead in the middle on politics, so I try to see both sides. But I believe thinking that the Rep. side will only want more drilling might be a little off. Especially since McCain is a moderate more than a conservative in what he has done so far.

I hate Hummers too.. not the old ones but the H2's. But even so if someone has the money to own one, let them own it. They paid for it not us. It is hard to tell someone what they should spend there money on. My family thinks I am crazy for spending as much time on the water as I do, I think they spend to much money on fast food, but nothing will make me or them change those facts.

Needless to say, no matter what this election will def. change the face of our country and hopefully move us in the right direction, which differs with who you are talking to.

All this being said any way we can make a canoe rack for a carriage. That woud save on gas...just might take a few days to get there...

[Prairie Tater]

I haven't completely digested them yet, but here are our presidential candidates' energy plans. I feel that the energy pinch is the most important issue in this election, so I'm going to base my vote on the plan that I think is best for our country. Of course, whether either of them will be able to implement their plan is another story. The lobbists may be too powerful for either of them.

http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Iss ... 8e96f4.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/factshee ... 080308.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[okieboater]

[quote="Prairie Tater"]. Of course, whether either of them will be able to implement their plan is another story. The lobbists may be too powerful for either of them.

According to one of the major new outlets "Follow the money" newscasts:

Guess who paid for both conventions? big time lobbists!

Guess who paid for all the big time convention parties, golf etc? big time lobbists

The news would show all the congressional leadership attending these parties and when asked congress persons could only offer up a joke as to why they were eating "finger food" etc as allowed by the rules.

I thought Speaker Pelosi and Majority Leader Reid were gonna clean up the lobbist's control over both parties? Same for Senator John McCain.

My opinion here but until ALL lobbists of any kind are outlawed in Washington DC and cannot contact Congress by any means - not much will be done for the people. If a congress person wants feedback on legislation, they can hold public hearings inviting various experts and contact their voters as well. No more golf trips or back room input on legislation, lets have the entire process open to the public. If it slows down things, so be it. Maybe the congress will work on what needs working on, not the pork.

Each and every law voted on should be listed 60 days before they are voted on in s public web site. Before any member of congress can vote on a piece of legislation of any kind, they should certify and pass a written test covering every thing in the legislation they are voting on. That might slow down some of the pork and special interest legislation.

Bottom line - Neither future Prez Obama or future Prez McCain will control the purse strings or pass legislation. Congress does that.

[David Mac]

Wow, we've even gone off-topic from the off-topic. I thought we were talking about energy sources and storage.

I like the conversion to hydrogen method for now simply because until we develop better batteries it is the most efficient method of storing and transporting power, plus there is almost zero carbon footprint to running electricity through water to crack it. A couple of strips of metal dipped in slightly salty water and you too can make split water into it's componet parts.

Not so sure about the fuel-cell/re-conversion thing, they may be more carbon intense to make. Of course you could always just burn the hydrogen straight up, but that probably isn't very efficient.

I'll say it again:

What we need is for more of us rich @## Americans (and other countries' people too) to give up buying next years latest and greatest cell-phone or 62" plasma TV and just make do with the ones we already have so we can spend the money to develop the technology/infrastructure to get greener energy implemented and get us free of our dependancy on oil and coal.

[okieboater]

My opinion here, but I think we will never get a real energy policy until some way is found to keep the lobbists out of the process. Money talks and B/S walks. Congress is going to go the way the money takes them.

Long as congress has all this big money influencing their votes - us regular people can do what ever we want to do but it will not influence congress. Unless we vote em out and find a reasonable person to replace them.

[okieboater]

Interesting news flash from CNN

Ford has a 65 mpg car they will sell in Europe but not in the USA.
Reason: It is a diesel and the laws over here are more than Ford wants to mess with.