Law Enforcement on the Remmel Section

[Mike S]

just a thought does the term "Navigable Waterway" not negate the whole thing since there are only like three in the state?

[we66erno1]

If you should take anything away from this thread it should be this, law enforcement has a lot to remember and that you should as a paddler, know the laws and regulations of any waterway you travel. AND ALWAYS PICK UP OTHER PEOPLE's LITTER! I'd rather take the ticket for picking up old glass bottles and fight it in court, then step on a piece of glass in the river.

It should be mandotory and in the ACC's by-laws that if a group of members are out floating, they are expected to pick up as much litter as can be accommodated. There's been countless times I've been with a group from the ACC and witnessed people turn up their nose at picking up litter or trash. No offense to you guys as a whole, but our boats don't get stained by trash.

[Cowper]

I understand that some are frustrated by all this, but I don’t think we want to end this thread with the idea or suggestion that someone can avoid a problem by NOT picking trash. I believe our rivers would be far better if we all make it a point to pick up just a couple of pieces each time we go down a river, and I want everyone who cares to not only do that themselves, but encourage others to do it.

So here’s your “get of jail free card”: If anyone is complying with this law, until the point where you pick up some trash for which you do not have a bag, and then gets a ticket even after respectfully and politely trying to explain the situation to the AGFC officers, I’ll work with you and help contact AGFC the next week to further explain the circumstances and try to get the ticket cancelled. If we are unsuccessful, then I’ll pay your fine.

[Mike S]

[quote="R_Corter"]Some things I took note of when I went back and read these fabulous 6 pages.

These are in no particular order!
1. Unlawful searches of personal belongings. People do take multiple day trips in the state on our beloved waters. I do think that digging through a persons dry bags is a violation of our 4th Amendment rights."The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Agreed

4. Change in the law to require livery owners have there customers sign a disclosure of notice on the state laws on boating and glass on the water, have been made available to them. Agreed

5. Change in law to hold livery owners responsible for prohibited(glass)items in there rented equipment. let me get this straight you would have me a Livery owner be held responsible for glass in a rented boat that's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. What would I do violate their rights and dig through their stuff.... Kinda like holding Enterprise car rental accountable for a renter breaking a traffic law.

I kept point # 1 in the quote so you could see the irony!

[Cowper]

Is there a place to put one of those at the put in area for the floaters?

Yesterday on the way to the put-in Chester and I found a good place and posted another sign, to supplement the one that is already there.

The new sign was added to another existing signpost that has a "no littering" message, but is closer to the road and a little more visible.

I'd also like to thank all those who helped us fill a couple of bags yesterday on the Remmel-to-Rockport downriver (Sharol, Tina, Marianne, Brandy, Todd, Chester, Zack, and ???)

And another bit of good news: I was talking to one of the "locals" who hangs out at the Rockport ledge pretty much every weekend. He told me that the City has noticed that when the summertime releases end, they have to spend more time picking up the park. In other words, the boaters are doing a good job of keeping things clean. Keep up the good work everybody, and please do that as you go downriver, too!

[R_Corter]

Some things I took note of when I went back and read these fabulous 6 pages.

These are in no particular order!
1. Unlawful searches of personal belongings. People do take multiple day trips in the state on our beloved waters. I do think that digging through a persons dry bags is a violation of our 4th Amendment rights."The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Agreed

4. Change in the law to require livery owners have there customers sign a disclosure of notice on the state laws on boating and glass on the water, have been made available to them. Agreed

5. Change in law to hold livery owners responsible for prohibited(glass)items in there rented equipment. let me get this straight you would have me a Livery owner be held responsible for glass in a rented boat that's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. What would I do violate their rights and dig through their stuff.... Kinda like holding Enterprise car rental accountable for a renter breaking a traffic law.

I kept point # 1 in the quote so you could see the irony!

#5. Wasn't my idea! I just gathered all the thoughts and ideas out of the thread. so mabey that clears up the confusion.

[Mike S]

I wonder who's responsibility it is to put these signs up. Because if i was an attorney, I would call that any ticket given to anyone on a waterway where a sign is not erected, a unlawful ticket. Below is the actual location, chapter and verse of the State's requirement to notify the public.

8-6-410. Notice to the public required.
The state shall erect signs containing pertinent portions of this subchapter along the public highways of
this state and in all campgrounds and trailer parks, forestlands, and recreational areas, at all public beaches,
and at other public places where persons are to be informed of the existence and content of this subchapter
and the penalties for violating its provisions.
History. Acts 1977, No. 883, § 8; A.S.A. 1947, § 82-3908.

****I wonder if you could call the enforcement of the above law nullified before a judge, if a sign was not erected.

All rental/livery companies should be required to have a form that explains the rules of the river, when it comes to glass, mesh bags, Styrofoam, floating devices, and other rules concerning the laws of a rented "vessel" that is not a part of this exception: "Vessel" shall not include a houseboat, party barge, johnboat, runabout, ski boat, bass boat, or
similar craft not easily susceptible to swamping, tipping, or rolling Agreed

And if someone disagrees with that, please notice that all livery owners are required to provide a mesh bag and a PFD. Either because of Game and Fish or because of their insurance. I am not required to do any of this but but do ...well because it just makes sense furthermore I want all of our renters to be in compliance with the law and at the very least aware of the law.

And in my opinion all livery companies should be held responsible for any glass that is not exempted from the law,found in their rented equipment. I promise that will have a quicker impact, then putting up signs. Because most people that have invested in their own gear, have an understanding of the laws concerning their new 'Vessel". Not saying everyone, but most do.

I have seen one other post regarding this.... in short how is this right how will it help and how could it be implemented? I also would disagree with the point of most owners know and follow the rule especially with the influx of tubers and hillbillies that found out you can buy a kayak at Walmart for just shy of $200 or a tube for $10. I can assure you of this every boat we put on the water will have a litter-bag attached (thanks to Cowper) , properly fitted vests, FREE koozie if needed and a renter that is aware of the boating laws and starting next year will sign a form stating they have read and understand the AR boating Laws. For these reasons the thought of me being held responsible for a renters ability to sneak a pint of rum past the anal cavity search we should be required to to perform upsets me greatly!!!

PS I have never seen a litter bag tied to a Tube

[Mike S]

After much consideration I have decided to change the font color from my prior two responses from red to green in an attempt to be less combative however my opinion still stands. On a side note I would be willing to allow the use of my canoes for river clean up projects free of charge .....some restrictions may apply but if its a genuine effort to clean up a water way just let me know I know it is difficult sometimes to use personal boats for a clean up due to size, airbags and outfitting.

[fryingsquirrel]

On a side note I would be willing to allow the use of my canoes for river clean up projects free of charge .....some restrictions may apply but if its a genuine effort to clean up a water way just let me know I know it is difficult sometimes to use personal boats for a clean up due to size, airbags and outfitting.

Three Cheers to Saline River Canoe and Mike for extending the Olive Branch of Awesomeness. That's good stewardship, right there. I think I can see in the not-too-distant future a good size Official cleanup, maybe as part of Rendezvous...
Sadly I don't think I'll make 'Vous this year, so anyone who wants to run with that idea can take right off.
I just think it'll be quite a scene when a fleet of boats full of litter and glass comes into the AGFC strainer

Let my warning ticket be a warning to all, watch your butt out there, if the LEOs want to give you a hard time, they probably will.

Jon Ellwood

[Moniker]

Some things I took note of when I went back and read these fabulous 6 pages.I do not support all the things listed! Just want to make that clear!

These are in no particular order!
1. Unlawful searches of personal belongings. People do take multiple day trips in the state on our beloved waters. I do think that digging through a persons dry bags is a violation of our 4th Amendment rights."The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
2. Signs that contain the correct language of the law. Signs should distributed as law states they should be.
3. Education of laws,it seems the AG&F is only interested in writing tickets. AG&F web site and boating laws handbook have been incorrect since 2003. Stating incorrect information on the use of mesh litter bags. ( Enforcement Without Education).
4. Change in the law to require livery owners have there customers sign a disclosure of notice on the state laws on boating and glass on the water, have been made available to them.
5. Change in law to hold livery owners responsible for prohibited(glass)items in there rented equipment.
6. False Enforcement of laws. WO need to know the laws when out enforcing them (Mesh bag is not required when no foodstuffs are on board and or a secure container is available).
7. Educate & Enforce laws at Launch sites before the public gets on the water. Prevent Littering!
8. Excess use of Alcohol. Get the Public Intox off the water. Laws in place to handle some of this (public intox, over possession, MIP......).
9. Put Wildlife Officers in Canoe/Kayaks. Get a presence on the river. They get on every other body of water in the state with the fancy bass boats. Get some nice canoes and kayak's and get r done.
10. Enforcement of actual littering (swamped tubes, canoes and kayak's with unsecured gear).
11. New laws on secure cooler and sturdy containers. The current law states( seal or lock in the contents to prevent the contents from spilling in to the water). Ive seen lots of coolers with factory seal's spill in to the water.

12. Change law to require canoes kayaks, and rafts to register. Money generated could go to the stream team and pay for the registration decal. Registration would help Identify crafts for the public and law enforcement. It may would help prevent some littering if they know there craft can be identified. Indecent exposures and drunkenness could be reported and authorities would know what and where to look for the perps.

#12 I just threw in see what some of you think.......... no biggie if its not well received.
If I left any good ideas out please feel free to discuss add, remove or alter!

The reason I haven't put a motor on my 16 ' Buffalo is that I don't wan't those ugly stickers on my boat.I sure don't want them on my other boats.
Don

[cj5752]

I wonder who's responsibility it is to put these signs up. Because if i was an attorney, I would call that any ticket given to anyone on a waterway where a sign is not erected, a unlawful ticket. Below is the actual location, chapter and verse of the State's requirement to notify the public.

8-6-410. Notice to the public required.
The state shall erect signs containing pertinent portions of this subchapter along the public highways of
this state and in all campgrounds and trailer parks, forestlands, and recreational areas, at all public beaches,
and at other public places where persons are to be informed of the existence and content of this subchapter
and the penalties for violating its provisions.
History. Acts 1977, No. 883, § 8; A.S.A. 1947, § 82-3908.

****I wonder if you could call the enforcement of the above law nullified before a judge, if a sign was not erected.

All rental/livery companies should be required to have a form that explains the rules of the river, when it comes to glass, mesh bags, Styrofoam, floating devices, and other rules concerning the laws of a rented "vessel" that is not a part of this exception: "Vessel" shall not include a houseboat, party barge, johnboat, runabout, ski boat, bass boat, or
similar craft not easily susceptible to swamping, tipping, or rolling Agreed

And if someone disagrees with that, please notice that all livery owners are required to provide a mesh bag and a PFD. Either because of Game and Fish or because of their insurance. I am not required to do any of this but but do ...well because it just makes sense furthermore I want all of our renters to be in compliance with the law and at the very least aware of the law.

And in my opinion all livery companies should be held responsible for any glass that is not exempted from the law,found in their rented equipment. I promise that will have a quicker impact, then putting up signs. Because most people that have invested in their own gear, have an understanding of the laws concerning their new 'Vessel". Not saying everyone, but most do.

I have seen one other post regarding this.... in short how is this right how will it help and how could it be implemented? I also would disagree with the point of most owners know and follow the rule especially with the influx of tubers and hillbillies that found out you can buy a kayak at Walmart for just shy of $200 or a tube for $10. I can assure you of this every boat we put on the water will have a litter-bag attached (thanks to Cowper) , properly fitted vests, FREE koozie if needed and a renter that is aware of the boating laws and starting next year will sign a form stating they have read and understand the AR boating Laws. For these reasons the thought of me being held responsible for a renters ability to sneak a pint of rum past the anal cavity search we should be required to to perform upsets me greatly!!!

PS I have never seen a litter bag tied to a Tube

I always have a bag tied to the same tube that holds my cooler.

[GaryPaladino]

I didn't read all of the posts, so feel a little guilty about making a comment. But, based on personal experience I would like to make these notes.

1) The law as written seems to consider a raft on a river as an item "easily swamped". Since I know someone who got a ticket for not having a koosie on her coca cola can (not beer) while sitting in the center of a 12+ foot raft while wearing a life jacket, I feel justified in saying that sometimes the letter of the law is enforced over the intent.

2) There is no argument that our rivers are quite full of trash, so some type of law is needed.

3) It amazes me that while writing this law the lawmakers seemed to only consider what I'll call the "river canoe, drunk littering problem" (and certainly one exists). But, if the intent was to prevent littering of our waterways, why did they focus so much on canoes, kayaks, and rivers? My point is that by this law houseboats, skiboats, etc are exempted. I again speak from considerable experience when I say that it's a heck of a lot easier to loose a beer can in the lake from a skiboat at 30mph than it is to loose it from raft floating down a lazy river. If anyone needs a Koozie law it's any boat capable of speeds in excess of 10mph.

4) Based on that last comment, I am curious, is there more trash in the Buffalo River or on the bottom of Beaver Lake (out of sight, out of mind, if you get my point).

[Cowper]

1) The law as written seems to consider a raft on a river as an item "easily swamped". Since I know someone who got a ticket for not having a koosie on her coca cola can (not beer) while sitting in the center of a 12+ foot raft while wearing a life jacket, I feel justified in saying that sometimes the letter of the law is enforced over the intent.

I think your friend could have “beaten” this one. The law makes no mention of rafts, and you should have been able to convince somebody higher up that the raft was not easily swamped and would have been more stable and unsinkable than a small jon boat. But, how much time and how much money could they have spent on the principle of the matter?

3) It amazes me that while writing this law the lawmakers seemed to only consider what I'll call the "river canoe, drunk littering problem" (and certainly one exists). But, if the intent was to prevent littering of our waterways, why did they focus so much on canoes, kayaks, and rivers? My point is that by this law houseboats, skiboats, etc are exempted. I again speak from considerable experience when I say that it's a heck of a lot easier to loose a beer can in the lake from a skiboat at 30mph than it is to loose it from raft floating down a lazy river. If anyone needs a Koozie law it's any boat capable of speeds in excess of 10mph.

Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Teacher, I know this one, can I answer again?
That same question came up when we were working to get changes to the law after it was first passed. The original law was conceived as a direct response to problems being seen on the Spring River by a local landowner who got sick and tired of all the cans being dumped in the river every summer weekend. He got together with a sympathetic and well-meaning state legislator, and the law was born. The feeling at the time was that the law never would pass if they made it broad enough to include bass boats, house boats on lakes, etc, so the scope was limited to what would “fly”. Given the amount of litter that flies out of the back of pick-up trucks, we even asked about expanding the mesh bag law to require securing some of that trash. We were told “no way” any legislator could vote for that; the pick-up truck owners of Arkansas just wouldn’t stand for it, and no legislator would take any chances by supporting that.

I hate to admit it, but politically it was the right thing to do. Better to pass a law that takes a bite out of the problem, than to write something that would take an even bigger bite, but then have it die in some committee and be left with the status quo.

[rugger]

Cowper- Ooh, ooh, ooh? What was that...your imitation of Horshack?!? LOL

[fryingsquirrel]

Nevertheless, Cowper, I've known many a Ranger or Deputy to write littering, MIPs, providing to minors, intoxed minors, and scores of other tickets by the bucketload while visiting "party cove" (every lake has one) during the summer weekends. They are still trying to crack down on the lakes with the big watercraft, they just can't issue a ticket for not having a mesh bag on board.
Jon Ellwood