Arkansas Canoe Club Forums

Seeing as how the proverbial cat has been let out of the bag, I figured I could open my big fat mouth and insert foot.

We (my family [mother, brother, sister-in-law, nephew, 5, dog and of course me]) were out enjoying a leisurely float on a perfect saturday afternoon. Mom and dog were in my Old Town, along with several inflatables in tow. Brother, sis-in-law, nephew and I were floating in our PFDs. Beer abounded, and was being consumed by adults only. Koozies were in use by all. PFDs were present for all. I didn't have a mesh bag, but littler was secured (in my opinion).
We get to the checkpoint and are waved in. I was surprised by the amount of personnel present. 2 sherriffs, and at lease 6 AGFC agents. I won't get into the resources aspect of this, that has already been covered very well. I approach an officer and he immediately starts digging through the cooler. I must stress that he didn't ask permission to do so. I tried to tell him that we had no glass, but he didn't seem to want to listen to me. I also tried to tell him that there were several found litter items in said cooler, again to no avail. Among the litter was a triple-sec vodka bottle that I believe was plastic. He saw it and immediately assumed that we'd already consumed it. There was also a wal mart bag with snacks and juice, I believe. He immediately states that I am to proceed to the tailgate of one of the trucks so I can be issued a warning citation for the mesh bag. I didn't want to cause a scene so I did. Officer there didn't care that I had found litter, or that I was a member of a family that was responsibly enjoying themselves. I'll admit that I was buzzed a little, but I wasn't fall over drunk like some of the locals. I even thought that If I explained to him all the crap I've removed from Arkansas' waterways he'd leave me be. No dice. Again, I wasn't even acknowledged on anything I said. He took my numbers and even had the nerve to ask me where I worked (I answered all questions honestly). Warning was issued and I got the heck out of there.
It is my opinion that they were there only to write tickets, not to prevent infractions or educate the public.
Mom even tried telling them that they should be handing out mesh bags instead of tickets, and was promptly dis-regarded.
The rest of our trip was a blast and without further event. I'd also like to say that I stopped drinking after the checkpoint because I knew I'd be driving later.
I will always make sure to have a mesh bag on future trips, that's for sure, even though I don't feel like I was breaking any laws due to the circumstance of everything being in a super stable boat, in the cooler which was secured, and with a sober captain that has years of paddling experience. And yes, I do know that accidents do happen, which is why the cooler was secured.
That's my (respectful) two cents.
Jon Ellwood

I wasn't picking on beer drinkers, cause I are one!!! Just saying that I've seen a lot of floaters losing a lot of cans...

I would like to state one more thing...I'm pretty sure that most counties only have, on average, 2 game wardens. These guys, and ladies, are stretched pretty thin. I'm not gonna get into the search and siezure aspect of this conversation, other than to say that the wardens have more "power" than your average police officer. Just think along the lines of checking a bass boat's livewell for fish.
These folks are out there every day putting thier lives in jeopardy for the well being of you, I, and our natural resources...I have nothing but respect and admiration for the job that they do!!!!!

On a Mulberry expedition with some RBF'ers from Redding to Turner Bend a few years ago my paddling buds got stuck in an eddy below the Sac.They were able to make it to shore but they did'nt seem to be capable of returning to their boats.Since I figured I had the lightest boat (having consumed all the beer I brought)I made the decision to go seek help or at least more beer and and a shuttle.When I got to the first pool I saw a couple of guys standing in the river.I thought they were fishing at first and started to paddle to the other side of the river until I got close enough to see they did'nt have fishing poles.Then I got a little closer and saw the sidearms and thought"what the ...."until I got close enough to see the AFG insignia on the tee shirts they were wearing.As I paddled by about three feet from them one said he could tell I was a local and was okay but the way it sounded they might want to check the group upstream real close.I said "I think they'll be o.k." and paddled on.I was wearing my PFD and helmet and had a mesh bag full of beer cans tied to my boat.When I got to the Hwy 23 bridge I heard sirens and thought "uh oh,there goes my shuttle".Since I had no other choice( I mean out of loyalty to my friends) I waited for what seemed like an eternity for someone to show up.When Dave arrived I found out what happened.The next person in my party obviously freed herself from said eddy and got caught in the strainer just downstream.After being cleared to go she turned and started to paddle upstream.She said one of the game wardens told her she could'nt go back up the river to which she responded"there's no #u&% law against paddling upstream!"She went back to to report what was downstream to her padding pards.One got a warning of some sort for a trash violation.As it turned out after I went through and while my paddlin pards were being checked out and delayed for some time a group of ladies went through and downsteam one got trapped under her boat.Luckily her freinds rescued her and got her breathing started.My party arrived just after the rescue but if they had'nt been held up they would have been close enough to help rescue that lady.Am I in favor or river blocks?No.

Someone who used to work in law enforcement explained to me that the reason they show up in large numbers is because the show of force makes it much less likely that any of the drunks will get beligerant with them. I may not like it, but I understand and that makes sense given the way some drunks are prone to behave. (Note, I said "some drunks". Not all drunks, not all beer drinkers.) Moving on...

Results of Monday's efforts on Polk Bayou in Batesville, with Debo, Mikki, Margaret, and myself:



And, last but not least, you can now tell more of those folks that think glass is OK on the river: "Here's your sign"

New sign added to Game and Fish "billboard" at Rockport on 8/24/12 (sign at lower right is the new addition)

Rockport


Close up of the new sign



Signs were provided to us by the AGFC Stream Team Coordinator that Doug Webber contacted this week. Since we were just adding them to an existing AGFC sign, I don't feel like we added any new "sign pollution" to a natural area. If you have other areas that you think would benefit from posting this information on the litter law, let us know, we have more signs.



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Great job guys.

Is there a place to put one of those at the put in area for the floaters?

Yes and No.

There is already one of these signs at the put-in, but because the boat ramp is down in the flood plain, all of the informational signs have been installed (by Entergy and/or AGFC) at the top of the small hill before you go down onto the gravel bar, making it several hundred yards away from the actual put-in point.

The sign is there, but admittedly most folks will drive right by without stopping to get out and read it. We might be able to do something better, but the down side of putting something at the boat ramp is that with each major flood our signs might become additional river litter. I'll be there tomorrow; I'll try to look around to see if there is an opportunity I didn't previously notice.

It really bothers me that the sign is not correct nor the current AG&F website:

"Attach and Use a Mesh Litter Bag
All canoes, kayaks, inner tubes and other vessels easily susceptible to swamping, tipping or rolling carrying food or beverages must have an attached closeable mesh trash container. All trash must be safely and lawfully disposed of. A container shall not be required for those persons traveling without foodstuffs or beverages."

And the actual law states from pg.2"(ii) The trash container or bag shall be either a sturdy container, of a construction similar to a sturdy container, or a bag of mesh construction;"

Someone at the AG&F needs to get the memo that way there WO's are not writing tickets for a law that is not correctly represented on there signs and web site. Don't get me wrong we still need the signs up until something new is printed for a replacement. If they write tickets for no mesh bag and you have a sturdy container with you for the trash the ticket will not hold up in court and it is just a big waste of every body's time & money. I printed a copy of the laws which I plan to laminate and will be carried in my dry bag for such a rainy day as fryingsqurriel had.....

Here is the current code out of the AG&F code book which was updated on 8/16/12 its looks as if its the same as posted on pg. 2Link:http://www.agfc.com/enforcement/Documen ... ations.pdf

L1.03 POSSESSION OR USE OF GLASS CONTAINERS ON NAVIGABLE WATERWAYS
8-6-418. Possession or use of glass containers on navigable waterways.
(a)(1) Except for containers for medicinal substances contained in a first-aid kit or prescribed by a
licensed physician, and except as provided under subdivision (a)(2) of this section, no person shall
possess or use glass containers within a vessel within the banks of Arkansas' navigable waterways.
(2) A person engaged in removing glass previously discarded by others and found within the banks of
an Arkansas navigable waterway may not be charged with a violation of this section on the basis of
possession of glass, if while underway and upon a waterway, he or she transports the removed glass
securely in a trash container.
(b)(1) A person entering, traveling upon, or otherwise using Arkansas' navigable waterways by canoe,
kayak, inner tube, or other vessel easily susceptible to swamping, tipping, rolling, or otherwise
discharging its contents into a waterway, and transporting foodstuffs or beverages shall:
(A) Transport all foodstuffs and beverages in a sturdy container and ensure that the container is
made to seal or lock in the contents to prevent the contents from spilling into the water;
(B)(i) Carry and affix to the vessel a trash container or bag suitable for containing his or her
refuse, waste, and trash materials and capable of being securely closed.
(ii) The trash container or bag shall be either a sturdy container, of a construction similar to a
sturdy container, or a bag of mesh construction;
(C)(i) Except as provided under subdivision (b)(1)(C)(ii) of this section, transport all his or her
refuse, waste, and trash either in a sturdy container or in a trash container to a place where
the refuse, waste, and trash may be safely and lawfully disposed of.
(ii) A person engaged in removing items of refuse, waste, and trash materials previously
discarded by others and found by him or her within the banks of an Arkansas navigable
waterway and that are too large to be transported in a trash container or bag, may not be
charged with a violation of this section on the basis of possession and transportation of the
refuse, waste, and trash; and
(D) At all times other than when a beverage is securely contained in a sturdy container or a
trash container as in subdivisions (b)(1)(A)-(C) of this section, keep the beverage attached
to or held within a floating holder or other device designed to prevent the beverage from
sinking beneath the surface of the waterway.
(2) Neither a sturdy container nor a trash container may be required of a person traveling without
foodstuffs or beverages.
(c)(1) A violation of this section shall be a misdemeanor and each violation may be prosecuted as a
separate offense.
(2) Each violation shall be punishable by a fine of not more than five hundred dollars ($500).
(d) For purposes of this section:
(1) "Navigable waterway" means any navigable river, lake, or other body of water used or susceptible
to being used in its natural condition by canoe, kayak, innertube, or other vessel easily susceptible
to swamping, tipping, or rolling and located wholly or partly within this state;
(2) "Sturdy container" shall not include a container that is:
(A) Primarily constructed of styrofoam; or
(B) So constructed that it may be easily broken; and
(3) "Vessel" shall not include a houseboat, party barge, johnboat, runabout, ski boat, bass boat, or
similar craft not easily susceptible to swamping, tipping, or rolling.

This is out of the code book also that covers the authorities of AG&F officers, I don't agree with it and its a little fuzzy if you ask me. The way I read it if you were not hunting or fishing and had no equipment then I don't think they would have a legal right to search without a warrant. It doesn't really matter, the law does as they please then the attorneys and prosecutors get to sort it out. All in the benefit of the system and the the guy that gets the ticket loses even if he is right and wins his case.

01.00-B DUTIES AND AUTHORITIES OF WILDLIFE OFFICERS
Wildlife Officers shall be commissioned by the Commission and shall have the right to
apprehend persons detected of violating any of the laws or regulations of the State
enacted for the protection of game, fish, furbearing animals and other wildlife, and to
take such offenders before any court having jurisdiction in the county where such offense
is committed. Wildlife Officers shall be authorized to serve all processes issued by a
court of competent jurisdiction relating to the enforcement of all laws and regulations
pertaining to game, fish, furbearing animals and other wildlife of the State; to go upon
any property outside of private dwellings, posted or otherwise, in the performance of
their duties; to carry firearms while performing duties; and to conduct searches with or
without a warrant according to law. Additionally, Wildlife Officers lawfully present in
any place may, in the performance of their duties, stop and detain any person who they
Reasonably suspect is, or recently has been, involved in any hunting, fishing, or trapping
activity to conduct an administrative inspection to determine whether the person is in
compliance with the laws and regulations of the State enacted for the protection of game, fish,
furbearing animals and other wildlife. Wildlife Officers may request that the person stopped
and detained immediately surrender the following items for inspection: all killing devices,
licenses, permits, tags, stamps, check sheets, ice chests, game bags, game vests, wildlife, fishing
tackle, equipment used for hunting or fishing or containers that can reasonable hold wildlife
(reference Code 05.30).
Sheriffs, constables and other law enforcement officers certified by the State of Arkansas, and
special agents and employees of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, National Park Service and
U.S. Forest Service who have been authorized to enforce laws and regulations administered by
the U.S. Department of the Interior or U.S. Department of Agriculture shall, upon request by the
Commission and upon proper oath or affirmation, have authority to make arrests, searches and
seizures for violations of State game and fish laws and regulations. They shall serve without
compensation from the Commission in the discharge of those duties. Wildlife Officers may be
appointed as special agents by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and shall have the additional
authority conferred upon them by that agency. They shall serve without extra compensation in
the discharge of those duties.

This has been interesting and informative topic, I will go back and read all again shortly. Were all against littering and glass on the water. I just don't think they should be able to perform a full cavity search at there pleasure. It kinda sounds like they can if they so choose. I believe in laws to protect us, from ourselves and others. Laws that protect the land and environment. We as individuals need not throw our rights out to accomplish the task at hand. If we do not stand up for our rights when they are being taken then we have already lost and more will be taken.

P.S. I recently saw in California where the right to search by a WO was challenged in the Supreme Court. The Court upheld the law. I was not pleased.Link: http://www.sacbee.com/2012/03/06/431432 ... rylink=cpy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Deer season starts soon. So unless your gonna be on the water for Labor day somewhere, I doubt you'll be seeing very many GW's anymore on the water. It also complicates the process of opening a dialogue with the AGF. Deer season is their busiest time of the year. So it's hard to get an time to sit down with them.

I was able to secure 100 mesh trash bags from the AGF stream team earlier this week(thanks to Cowper picking them up). Myself and my three boys handed some out to tuber's on Saturday before putting on at Remmel. I noticed Jim K was in need of a few. Next time I see you, I'll have bout 20 in my truck.

The guy so stated that we could buy them for $.50 each. These are the extra large kind. So if anyone is in need of one, hit up me or Cowper. You would be expected to pick up extra debris that you see on the river though.

Cowper gave a very good reason as to why law enforcement officers are present in numbers at check points, river blockages, whatever you want to call them. Out of curosity, I googled for a listing of national park service, state wildlife officers, etc who have lost their lives in the line of duty. The results were interesting. After having often seen and been verbally harrassed by floatillas of lowlife slugs, drunk or otherwise, I get it. Theirs is another reality from mine. If a patient goes balistic in the hospital, security and every other able bodied employee appears immediately. Yep, I would definitely be wanting my posse there too.

Some things I took note of when I went back and read these fabulous 6 pages.I do not support all the things listed! Just want to make that clear!

These are in no particular order!
1. Unlawful searches of personal belongings. People do take multiple day trips in the state on our beloved waters. I do think that digging through a persons dry bags is a violation of our 4th Amendment rights."The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
2. Signs that contain the correct language of the law. Signs should distributed as law states they should be.
3. Education of laws,it seems the AG&F is only interested in writing tickets. AG&F web site and boating laws handbook have been incorrect since 2003. Stating incorrect information on the use of mesh litter bags. ( Enforcement Without Education).
4. Change in the law to require livery owners have there customers sign a disclosure of notice on the state laws on boating and glass on the water, have been made available to them.
5. Change in law to hold livery owners responsible for prohibited(glass)items in there rented equipment.
6. False Enforcement of laws. WO need to know the laws when out enforcing them (Mesh bag is not required when no foodstuffs are on board and or a secure container is available).
7. Educate & Enforce laws at Launch sites before the public gets on the water. Prevent Littering!
8. Excess use of Alcohol. Get the Public Intox off the water. Laws in place to handle some of this (public intox, over possession, MIP......).
9. Put Wildlife Officers in Canoe/Kayaks. Get a presence on the river. They get on every other body of water in the state with the fancy bass boats. Get some nice canoes and kayak's and get r done.
10. Enforcement of actual littering (swamped tubes, canoes and kayak's with unsecured gear).
11. New laws on secure cooler and sturdy containers. The current law states( seal or lock in the contents to prevent the contents from spilling in to the water). Ive seen lots of coolers with factory seal's spill in to the water.
12. Change law to require canoes kayaks, and rafts to register. Money generated could go to the stream team and pay for the registration decal. Registration would help Identify crafts for the public and law enforcement. It may would help prevent some littering if they know there craft can be identified. Indecent exposures and drunkenness could be reported and authorities would know what and where to look for the perps.

#12 I just threw in see what some of you think.......... no biggie if its not well received.
If I left any good ideas out please feel free to discuss add, remove or alter!

summerbee wrote:Cowper gave a very good reason as to why law enforcement officers are present in numbers at check points, river blockages, whatever you want to call them. Out of curosity, I googled for a listing of national park service, state wildlife officers, etc who have lost their lives in the line of duty. The results were interesting. After having often seen and been verbally harrassed by of lowlife slugs, drunk or otherwise, I get it. Theirs is another reality from mine. If a patient goes balistic in the hospital, security and every other able bodied employee appears immediately. Yep, I would definitely be wanting my posse there too.

If I'm a WO packing heat the numbers would be the ones in the clip and chamber of my firearm. They could get out in doubles and be fine. They do it in much dangerous situations at night with poachers who have firearms mostly one on one or worse. I would never ask of them to go it alone though. That is something that i learned in the military always have a buddy. The NPS rangers i have seen floating were in doubles in whitewater kayaks. The AG&F WO go out in boats as pairs on the lakes and big rivers to enforce the laws amongst large numbers of lowlife slugs, drunk or otherwise. So It is my opinion they can do it on our floating streams. They would have a firearm where most of the floaters will not while floating, thus the exact opposite of what they are use to encountering in there line of duty. and it aint worth much!

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