Law Enforcement on the Remmel Section

[FloatingBear]

Let's all work to keep those streams and lakes clean...

[Moniker]

Has anyone present been ticketed for an infraction of the law on the rivers?

Don Lewis

[Cowper]

Fryingsquirrel, who sometimes posts but has been biting his tongue on this one, received a warning ticket within the last two weeks, but no fine. He was "mostly" in compliance, empties in a closed, secured cooler, but I think he had some candy bars or something in a walmart bag which was deemed "not sturdy". (I have to agree on that point.) But it leads to an interesting side discussion - the law requires you to secure trash in a sturdy container; it doesn't really require you to secure all your "good stuff" like cameras or camping gear.

[R_Corter]

Cowper, just to clear this up cause I have done it. You cant eat a candy bar while on the river unless you are at rest on the shore? No snickers or M&M's while floating? We have a secure dry bag in the bow of the boat that we put snacks in and every time I want a pringles chip I have to stop on shore according to the law? If my wife unstraps the dry bag pulls out a snack we are technically breaking the law? I don't think I have ever asked her to get out the pringles while in the middle of a good rapids run but I'll have to check with her. So would secure include me holding my pringles can, candy bar or crackers in my hand?

I'll go ahead and chime in here on the rest of the subject since i'm here anyway. I don't agree with the river blocks. I am glad they do something instead of nothing but it could be done without infringing on our rights. Too many people have no respect for the land, water, mother nature and what many have worked very hard to ensure that the public has an opportunity to enjoy. I do think like some have said they would be better off at the launch ramps, making sure people know the laws before they get on the river(education) and writing tickets (enforcement) as they exit the river. As far as searching your boat and belongings in dry bags and other secured locations I don't think they could without probable cause or warrant unless you had fishing or hunting equipment in your boat. Anything loose, unsecured and in sight could be the beginnings of probable cause. Then with hunting fishing gear a WO(wildlife officer) has the right to search anything he/she wants without a warrant or probable cause(big time violation of our rights but that's another subject). I cringe every time I go to spring river because of all the trash. I have never been through a river block. I have been checked multiple times by Rangers on Buffalo. They have always been nice and courteous. Never taking more than a couple minutes to do there part to keep the river looking nice. I have never felt violated or my rights taken. I have had several beers on the river and it is no excuse for littering or an excuse label those that do drink as litter's. I have seen were that label could come from though. I don't recall ever loosing anything while on the water. I always secure our belongings to the boat or in a container that is water tight and will float. I do think most Arkansas WO's could use a PR class. I have on more than one occasion had them be a jerk when I was within all bounds of the law(I do hunt and fish alot). Hope I didn't offend anyone, if I did I apologize in advance.

[Deuce]

Clearly the statute could have been written better, but I don't think anyone should interpret it to mean a paddler can't eat a Snickers mid-float. Rather, I think the intent is to insure that said Snickerses and M&Ms and Chick O Sticks and beef jerky are securely contained (Wallyworld bag clearly doesn't qualify as secure) when not being enjoyed. As for drinkers of beer being seen as litterers; not sure where that came from. I certainly never said it, and I don't recall reading any other posters who did either. Were it true I would be the chiefest of sinners.

I may be proven wrong one day, but I've never regretted applying common sense to a law that I think could have been crafted better but has an obvious purpose. Common sense tells me the purpose of this one is to keep stuff that belongs in the boat in the boat. The best way I can think of to do that is to keep my food, drinks, trash (and others' trash I pick up along the way) and gear securely contained in the boat. For my purposes secure containment equals a dry bag for the grub and gear, a strapped in cooler with secure lid for the brews, and a mesh bag or additional dry bag for the trash. It ain't rocket surgery. If you do it that way or similar I'll bet every boat in Cowper's fleet you won't have any problems.

[Cowper]

Cowper, just to clear this up cause I have done it. You cant eat a candy bar while on the river unless you are at rest on the shore? No snickers or M&M's while floating? We have a secure dry bag in the bow of the boat...

The correct answer is: I don't know!

The law is quoted at the top of page 2 of this thread, but
1) I'm not 100% sure that is the full text of the law
2) I'm not a lawyer and
3) Even if I was a lawyer, and had the full text of the law, that would not be a guarantee as to what an individual officer might think the law says

The portion quoted clearly says the foodstuff must be transported in a sturdy container. My friend was not doing that, thus the warning ticket. (EDIT - See correction below; bag was in the container, but no mesh bag...)
The law says BEVERAGES must be in a coozy when not being transported in the container.
I don't think the law addresses OTHER foodstuff one way or another except while "transporting". So one officer might not make a big deal out of it, while another could say it is obviously being transported if it is in your boat. I can't see where the law really provides a clear answer to your specific question.

If I got hailed, while eating, it would make sense to put the food back in the bag before picking up the paddle and paddling over - if you set it down on the floor THEN it becomes unsecured trash and is for sure a violation.

Personally, I will continue to enjoy an occassional snack while floating downriver and not worry about it.

If you are obviously trying to do the right things, it will show. If you are polite and respectful, I don't think you would get any more than a warning for any minor thing the officer thinks you should do differently.

[Cowper]

If you do it that way or similar I'll bet every boat in Cowper's fleet you won't have any problems.

WHOA - WHOA -WHOA - let's not get carried away here! Sometimes bad things happen to good people!

But I would be willing to bet one of my boats - The porta-jon boat is up for grabs!

[Wildwood]

As far as time involved, the last strainer I saw, in May at Bayou access on the Spring, I didn't even come to a stop. I had my canned drink in a coozie, my mesh bag secured, my PFD on, my goodies in a dry bag and a big smile on my face. I headed for the officer in the middle, said something like "no glass, no Styrofoam" and thanked him for being there. He waved me on. I see no problem with that. I didn't feel violated or inconvenienced. I was kinda amused, on the other hand. Behind me were hundreds of rafts & rental canoes, and I knew he was gonna be busy. Just another summer Saturday on Spring River.

Jan

[mohawklady]

I was with frying squirrel when he got the warning, i believe he got the ticket for not having a mesh bag.(i left it at home) We has coozies, beer in a cooler, cooler secured but no mesh bag. We had all of empties in a plastic bag inside secured cooler...I suggested to the the AGF people to hand out mesh bags instead of warnings and educate people about the rules, had they gave me a bag i could of picked alot more of the loose cans floating and some more trash....Pam

[Cowper]

Thanks for clearing that up - now I understand his frustration more, if the plastic bag was INSIDE a secured container.

[summerbee]

I have really enjoyed the last half of this thread. It became objective and resonable, understanding that the are most certainly imperfections in the system but, at the same time, recognizing its obvious benefits. I wonder if it would be productive to invite the NPS, Ark Game and Fish, etc to be guest speakers at chapter meetings? ( I emphasize the word, "invite" as opposed to, "summon". )
I am not going to believe we are on opposing teams. The one that suffers the most when it becomes, "Them" versus "Us" is the river.
With all the fuzziness in the rules and regs, I would not be surprised it the officers at ground level aren't a bit baffeled themselves.
Cheers.

[Jim E]

Excellent suggestion Summerbee!!

Wonder if the upcoming Rendezvous would be an appropiate venue for inviting a AGFC guest speaker to..uhh...speak?

[Deuce]

I was thinking about that too, Jim. I'm not sure there would be enough people sitting still in one place at the same time though. I'm sorry to hear about Frying Squirrel's encounter. Sounds to me like he was playing by the rules.

[R_Corter]

As for drinkers of beer being seen as litterers; not sure where that came from. I certainly never said it, and I don't recall reading any other posters who did either. Were it true I would be the chiefest of sinners.

Not that it was said that way, i just think some look at it that way. We are in the Bible belt and I know how drinking is viewed to many in this great state. I can leave my house in Lonoke county drive north on highway 5(about 140 miles) and will not hit a wet county till I get to Baxter county which is on the state line.
On pg.3 quote "but how many beer cans have you seen floating on the water after someone tips going over the ledge? 2 weekends ago there was ONE tuber that lost about 2 cases of empty beer cans when he went over...yes he was with a group of people, and no, not a one of them made an effort to recover the cans before they floated down the river!
And "socially acceptable"...REALLY?!? " I seen a couple more mention party goers and drinking on the river and I just think that some associate drinking with lude obnoxious law breaking littering individuals. I am most certainly not picking on the one who made the quote above i have seen the exact same thing and it makes me sick!! Alcohol is most certainly a factor in the littering problem it is pretty easy to see. I would not hesitate to say that at least 90% of the cans in the Spring River are beer cans it kinda point the finger in one direction. Once again the Wife and I do drink but we police up our trash as well as others. I saw cooler of beer after cooler of beer empty into the Spring last year at dead man's curve. An officer could have wrote many tickets that day without having a blockade. I think most of the probable cause for search and seizure was in the river! Why do the officers not boat down the river? I know the NPS has there rangers boat on Buffalo River. I have seen it many times. Do Game and Fish not have any officers that can use a canoe or kayak on our mild white water? I'm not poking fun i'm being serious. I'm not talking about officers being in plain clothes and undercover either. I think officers in uniform present on the river would help a lot. Not in blockades but in boats and out patrolling making there presence known. Take advantage of swamped canoes with unsecured trash and foodstuffs. My cooler is a steel belted Coleman with a metal latch. I still tie a rope across the lid with a slip knot. I do not secure it to the boat as I know it will float and I can recover it if we get swamped. Yes it is a little more to do when I want a drink but if every one took an extra step to prevent their cooler from opening when a canoe is swamped were not having this discussion right now. I do think it is another area of the Law that needs to be defined better is the security of a cooler. Many of the people on the river rely on the factory latch to hold the cooler shut. Most coolers will not stay shut when a canoe gets swamped.

We need a weather discussion on rain If we don't get any rain there will not be anyone on the river's to litter!!

[Half Ton]

I've enjoyed the ENTIRE discussion and think a lot of new and beneficial perspectives and actions will now occur to improve the rivers. Mostly because of boaters. This happened last time also as I remember, difference is I didn't get banned. Prolly cause I didn't talk about a baboon lassoing enforcer ( that's the story the locals tell about a particular one whose name i cant mention) that made an enforcement on me for a similar very minor infraction to frying squirrel. PLUS I didn't exactly bend over AND I stood up for my rights ( could you imagine lassoing a baboon?!? Why not just use a drug dart?)

I disagree that the presentation of different perspectives are bad for the river. The rivers will benefit from this educational discussion and information exchange. The agency in charge needs to and can make beneficial changes period. Will they? I'm not too optimistic, but I hold out a little hope.

Us boaters will all do better to take care of at least attempting to fill the current educational void tho. That came organically as a direct result from this discussion.