Firearms in national parks

[RIORESIDENT]

o gosh ain't this funnin' hey butch, how many permits you put in for? Im damn sure gonna need a logger on my next run......


dont those guys/gals have a bulls**t forum?

RIO~

[Butch Crain]

Decaf, Bro, Decaf

A little reading for you when the fever goes down -

http://www.southeasttexaslive.com/site/ ... 2588&rfi=6

[Cowper]

They're so many good reasons I shouldn't break my informal rule about not getting involved in too many non-paddling related threads. 1) I'm not going to change anyone's mind, all I can do is tell you part of what I believe. 2) I suspect that some of the above posts are not really statements of personal belief, but just statements chosen to insure a "lively" discussion.

On the impact of carry laws relative to poaching, illegal target practice (actually using the guns in places where clearly forbidden or unsafe), and law enforcement officer safety, I don't believe there is any real connection. The list of seemingly minor infractions for which you can loose your carry permit is long, and includes things like being convicted of carrying in a place not permitted, even if no other crime was committed. More importantly, felons are not allowed to possess firearms, at all, for any reason, including legal hunting. For convicted felons, there is no legal hunting. Those who carry legally know this, they value their right to carry, and they are among the people least likely to intentionally commit a felony of any kind, and thus loose this right for the remainder of their lives. Being a felon also brings many other things; loss of right to vote, likely loss of job, difficulty in finding new jobs, and so on.

I know this is pointless to say, but on the slight chance there really is anyone "undecided" out there, I'll say it anyway: If you think passing a law forbidding carry in a regional area, whether it be a park or a city, has any significant impact on the decisions criminals make, then go do some research on laws and crime rates that includes some of our major cities like Washington DC, New Orleans, and New York. Guns are not allowed, and citizens and LEO's are NOT safe from guns. In my opinion, the low rate of deaths involving Park Rangers has got to be due to some other cause(s). For gun bans to have any serious impact, you're also going to have to get rid of that pesky Fourth Amendment (search and seizure), and most of us aren't ready to do that yet.

Hospitals, Emergency Rooms, First Aid kits, CPR training. Seems unrelated, but I see some strong parallels. When things go really wrong, I want the professional care available from hospitals and ER's. But I can't be teleported there instantaneously. So First Aid kits may prevent something from progressing to that stage in the first place, and CPR gives me a chance of saving a life, even if the statistics show on-site CPR fails more often than it is successful.

I feel the same way about the Military, the police, and park rangers. I'm glad they are there, maintaining the basic structure of our society. They can clearly deal with situations that are far beyond the capabilities of a single armed citizen. But they can't teleport to my location instantaneously at the first sign of potential trouble. In this situation, the right to carry is like the first aid kit or CPR; it is not absolute, but it gives me a chance of heading off or dealing with a bad situation, and it gives me some peace of mind knowing that I have at least attempted to prepare for the worst instead of just rolling the dice and hoping for the best.

I believe even those who don't want to legally carry firearms, benefit from the fact that others do. You may have kids in the house; you may be willing to turn the other cheek and risk death, before using deadly force in an attempt to ward off an attacker. Or you may just feel that the attacker has too great an opportunity to arm himself with your weapon. These are all good reasons, and I'm not about to try to talk anyone into carrying a firearm, that would be a huge mistake on my part. But the mere fact that you MIGHT be carrying, decreases the chance of you being attacked, the same way that the fact that the police MIGHT be running radar decreases the number of folks who decide to run 90 mph down the freeway.

EDIT:

I posted the info because I thought it would open an intelligent discussion of what modifications in the rule might be proposed.

Now Butch, I like you, but I think I may have to call "B.S." on that statement! You knew better than that from past personal experience!

[Butch Crain]

My last comment.

I never indicated in any way that I was against the right to bear arms in any venue.

I posted the info because I thought it would open an intelligent discussion of what modifications in the rule might be proposed.

In my mind that includes the open, registered, and notorious possession of handguns, not letting yahoos with a 22 snub take target practice in public venues.

Park rangers shouldn't have to guess who's packing. If they know who, what, & where up front, they can focus on dealing with the idiots who really are a threat.

[RIORESIDENT]

you can pretty much carry a gun on you, unconcealed, in the state of Arkasnas when on a journey that will lead you 60 miles or more from your home.


texas laws are similar.........but sixty, is just about shy of county wide

rio

Im sorry to anyone I offended, (especially you butch)

I don't know you from death, but for some reason I seem the need to claw at someone.


your not it, and neither is this board. Im sorry to any and all, I offended.

[okieboater]

I think Cowper's post states very well my feelings on fire arms and use of same.

I firmly believe that expecting reasonable government protection is a good thing, but at some point we have to take care of ourselves.

I live in a typical bedroom community. If some one broke into my house, it would be me and them as our local police are great folk, but their response time where I live is not that great. Police can not be every where these days.

Unfortunately, if you drive the interstates or even hike the public hiking trails we have a bunch of people who do not obey anybodies law but their own.

Tulsa has become a city where killings and break in's are a daily happening. Now every week someone is shot, a car hijacked in a parking lot or a home break in happens with the criminals shooting first and sometimes shooting to kill so no one is there to testify. The drug culture we now see in Tulsa makes these people look at cars or homes as potential drug buy money. More and more homes are being broken into in the areas far away from known drug dealing. Like bank robbers used to say, that is where the TV, Cameras, good stuff to sell are located.

I am not in favor of a bunch of guys in a tavern drinking beer and having a pistol on their hips or in a pocket. Odds of an accident do not seem right.

But, I am in favor of a person having some kind of training (I know it's not much these days) and having the ability to protect themselves from the crazies out there. Especially in a person's home, car and yes even in a camp or walking a trail in the forest.

I notice that almost every Ranger I see these days have a automatic pistol on their hips - especially so where the public has access in a car. I have seen the river ranger on the river on the Yampa and Green with no sidearm, but I suspect they had one close at hand. I have seen rangers at put ins wearing pistols.

I think gun laws work but only for the people who obey them.

Therefore, I support gun training and concealed carry laws And to me, protecting my family and friends from a person with the intent of doing bodily harm is a lawful thing to do.

[bayoukid]

I agree with everything Cowper said as well. However, there is one part that doesn't ring true, at least in some states. Not ALL felons loose their right to vote and bear arms. There are certain "white collar" felonies and non-violent felonies that do not constitute the individual loosing those rights. And also, there are certain types of muzzleloaders that are not considered "firearms" that can be purchase and used by convicted felons legally.

~RR~ I can understand your anger. I am a member of the NRA, TNUSA and I am also involved somewhat in the fight for hunters rights. Any sort of talk about any type of firearm restriction and/or ban gets me hot under the collar. But cooler heads always prevail.


For starters, there was no reasoning for Reagan to prevent citizens from carrying readily accessible firearms onto lands managed by the National Park Service and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service other than the reason somebody shot him. :roll: As we can see, there has only been a handful of Park Rangers that have died while in the line of duty, with one being shot. I found those numbers here. And we can't say that "Oh, there wasn't any killed because of the ban" because the stats start 4 decades before the ban with no incidents that would justify the ban in the first place. But one thing is for certain, the number of deaths of "law abiding citizens" whom use these Parks for the reason they are there has steadily rose since the ban.


As of now, the only actual problem that I see and that is being shown here is from people involved with drugs that are using these areas to grow marijuana and to set up meth labs. I don't know about you but, I wouldn't include these folk in the same catagory as the "everyday law abiding citizens". National Parks, correct me if I am wrong, are for the people. I would wager that the reason "National parks have a lower crime rate than many similarly sized communities" as stated on the webpage that started this debate would be because there is a "better group of society" as a whole that visits these parks than what is found in alot of communities.

I haven't done the research yet but, I would also wager that crime (against civilians) has went up since this bill has passed. Gun laws do nothing to prevent crime because gun laws only effect the honest folks. It's the idea of the criminal not knowing if we are packing is what keeps crime rates down against civilians in these Parks, without a shot ever being fired.


Now, I do agree that since National Parks are for recreational use and we take our families there that, firearms should not be used as a form of recreation, unless there was designated areas such as firing ranges. It would make more sense to allow the firearms and then have a law that prevents the "discharge" of the firearms.

[Bob Stout]

Before this thread dies, I've got to add my two-bits. I'm not afraid of the person that has the training and has a CCP - I think we're more indangered by the casual plinker.
Example: During the fall of 06, several paddling friends and I, from Louisiana, Arkansas, Missouri, and Illinois met for a long week-end canoe trip and campout on the Eleven-Point in MO. We hadn't realized that the Missouri Deer Season was in full swing.

We were probably 200, or so yards above a camping area on river left - our two lead canoes were about three yards apart - a bullet ricocheted off the water between them. I started yelling that there were canoes on the river - when we got closer - we saw a big buck hanging in a tree close to a picnic table. A guy was walking to the left between table and river, his right hand was hidden beside his right hip.

Plinking/shooting bullets at objects without a back-stop, and especially on, or over water is bad news. I was stationed many years ago in Ohio - a 9mm pistol bullet ricocheted off a small creek and killed a 2 year old child in a swing almost 2 miles away - they never found out who fired the bullet.

[sugarmtngal]

Cowpper, Dave and Bob make good sense of this highly controversial topic!
Growing up we learned to shoot, clean, and respect a weapon. A weapon was not a toy - even toy guns we were taught not to point at any human what-so-ever or we'd get in deep trouble with dad or mom! Back then it was a spankin...............and a lecture

The bottom line usually is EDUCATING the people. Teaching at an early age is the best method.................Yea TEACHERS!

[depic]

Didn't read all. but My 2cents----ccp can't carry if he or she is going to a place that serve beer -ect. only and doesn't serve food. If a person is found dui and has a gun , he want have a ccp long. If you are asked for an id , you have to produce your ccp at that time, have a gun or not. My instructor said if you went to a park and you where traveling, gun can not leave the car and has to be unloaded. signs on doors of business that say on guns allowed, you can not go in with your gun, ccp will not allow it. Outlaws don't care about laws.
Dennis

[okieboater]

Didn't read all. but My 2cents----.
Dennis

Dennis, what you said is about what the CC instructors teach here in OK as well. You posted a good summary of the rules.

From what I have read on the subject, it is the same in most all conceal carry states.

[robkanraft]

I don't want to carry a conceiled pistol, If I need a defense weapon I want one of these waterproof boys...

http://www.mossberg.com/products/defaul ... n=products

[depic]

and most states honor the other states ccp. If a weapon is illegal a ccp does allow you to carry. I was purchasing an auto knife [mech.] and I am in the inderstanding that it is illegal to carry unless you a police, active military, etc. Spring assisted is ok but if there is a button to push to release the blade [switch blade] it is illegal even with a ppc. no I passed on the buy. because if I got caught with something like that it could cost me my ppc.

Remember if you can away from the attacker any other way other than to use deadly force. Do so. CCp doesn't give one the right to kill. And to step into another person being attacked be sure what you are getting into. And do not pull a weapon on someone unless you intend to use it. You are reasonable for your actions.

But I believe like Cowper if more carried , outlaws would think twice before the attacking anyone.

[bayoukid]

I don't want to carry a conceiled pistol, If I need a defense weapon I want one of these waterproof boys...

http://www.mossberg.com/products/defaul ... n=products

That's pretty nice there.

quote from their website:

Whether it’s survival in the backcountry or hurricane season on the coast, one can never be too prepared for the unexpected.

hurricane season on the coast :shock:



No matter what language you speak, you understand the meaning of the sound of a pump shotgun! :twisted:

[James Canon]

I'm all for it! (There's good huntin in them parks and refuges :) )

Nothing was said about allowing firearms to be discharged in the parks and refuges. Only that it would not be a violation to be in possesion of a legal firearm. Sounds good to me.