Who has gotten Litter Law tickets in 2013?

Open Discussion
prophet
.....
.....
Posts: 605
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:03 pm
Name: Grant Nally

Re: Who has gotten Litter Law tickets in 2013?

Post by prophet » Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:31 pm

how does this work with overnight gear?

MissEllie
..
..
Posts: 184
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:16 am
Name: Ellanorah Wilson

Re: Who has gotten Litter Law tickets in 2013?

Post by MissEllie » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:11 pm

I am the daughter of the 84-year old. She was so far ahead of us we never saw her until the drop & she was sitting on the bank waiting for us. Go mom! My mom, BJ, was not outfitted due to my oversight. I have gear bags, organized for each kayak, so that I put everything in.

This trip we had two guests, a loaner boat & I was trying to get everyone set up & on the water. Due to my “oopsie” the mesh bag did not get put into any of the kayaks. None of us had trash – just full water bottles that were not yet trash.

I also was short a PFD – I did a fast decision. Do I leave the 84-year old without a PFD? Nope. Do I leave one of the two guests that I don’t know their abilities without a PFD? Nope. Do I leave the hubby without a PFD? Nope – not enough life insurance to make it worthwhile. Do I go without a PFD? Sure, more life insurance on me, I am a strong swimmer, I have handled many experiences in moving water & I was the one who screwed up on the PFD count.

In 10+ years of kayaking I have NEVER been without a PFD. Might not have it on but had it with me. I figured – what are the chances. I have NEVER seen in Texas or Arkansas an operation like they had going. I got a ticket. Still do not know what it will cost me – when I called the office today they had no clue, will call back tomorrow.

My observation/questions are:

None of the officers/interns standing in water had on a PFD - are they drown proof?
Had I been in a tube or on a pool float would I have gotten a ticket?
Had I been swimming down the river would I have gotten a ticket?
Had I been floating on a log down the river would I have gotten a ticket?

They did not ticket us for the bags but since I got a PFD ticket I guess they took pity. They did find drugs on a guy not in our group – we left before we saw what happened with him.

They searched our boats like they were looking for more than bags – were they looking for drugs & underage drinking? On a dark night with a blindfold on none of us would be mistaken for underage. Could we have refused the search? I was the only one without a PFD but I do not have any storage compartment on my boat. Did they have a right to search boats without probable cause?

Did I break the law – YES! Did I start with that intention – NO! I will pay the fine if affordable or ask for a public flogging or community service if not. Will I ever be a PFD short… NO!!

My last question is: Where the hell are these guys on the Buffalo & Spring Rivers in the “drunk zones” where folks do not have on PFDs & are so drunk they cannot paddle much less walk & have TONS of trash & empty bottles/cans all over their boats?

BUT I am not bitter!

Ellie :kayak:

User avatar
davidbob
...
...
Posts: 218
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:48 am
Location: Baja Argenta
Contact:

Re: Who has gotten Litter Law tickets in 2013?

Post by davidbob » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:57 pm

MissEllie wrote:
BUT I am not bitter!

Ellie :kayak:
Neither is Kacey Jones http://tinyurl.com/I-mNotBitter
Debo & The Stay Puft Marshmallow Men - Manager and Groupie Coordinator
RBF - Legal Counsel
ARG - Founding Member and Scribe (currently banned)
Team Stupid - Senior Sweep Boat Captain Division

User avatar
Deuce
ACC President
Posts: 1799
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:09 pm
Name: Luke Coop
Location: Dogtown

Re: Who has gotten Litter Law tickets in 2013?

Post by Deuce » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:04 am

Bitter???????!!!!!!!! I didn't even know 'er!!!!!!!! :ROFL: Miss Ellie, I'm sorry you had that experience. Next time you find yourself a PFD short at an event like that speak up. Forgetting a PFD with this bunch is like forgetting a .357 at the NRA convention. There will be no shortage of spares, and there will be no shortage of fellow paddlers willing to hook you up. That is how we roll. Dig?
You come too.
Robert Frost

User avatar
Deuce
ACC President
Posts: 1799
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:09 pm
Name: Luke Coop
Location: Dogtown

Re: Who has gotten Litter Law tickets in 2013?

Post by Deuce » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:18 am

BTW, I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who was worried about the safety of the interns, trainees, or whatever they were. I mentioned to the girl who took possession of my grab loop that they were way too close together and probably shouldn't be standing shin deep in the water like that. I attemtped to explain why and was first met with a glassy-eyed stare, then with the infamous mesh bag question. I conveyed my concerns about this to Major Callaway in addition to the mesh bag debacle, and others should feel free to do the same, but remember, if you do, BE NICE. Our objective is to make things better.
You come too.
Robert Frost

User avatar
Deuce
ACC President
Posts: 1799
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:09 pm
Name: Luke Coop
Location: Dogtown

Re: Who has gotten Litter Law tickets in 2013?

Post by Deuce » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:19 am

prophet wrote:how does this work with overnight gear?
Can you elaborate?
You come too.
Robert Frost

prophet
.....
.....
Posts: 605
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:03 pm
Name: Grant Nally

Re: Who has gotten Litter Law tickets in 2013?

Post by prophet » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:45 am

Deuce wrote:
prophet wrote:how does this work with overnight gear?
Can you elaborate?
being lazy, just wondered about the rules re tieing down all equipment with a boat full of stuff like on the Buffalo.
one mans trash is another mans treasure

User avatar
Deuce
ACC President
Posts: 1799
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:09 pm
Name: Luke Coop
Location: Dogtown

Re: Who has gotten Litter Law tickets in 2013?

Post by Deuce » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:49 am

I'm not aware of any regulations that specify how to secure gear; only trash. Not saying they don't exist, but I've never seen them.
You come too.
Robert Frost

Yarbrough
.
.
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:43 pm
Name: Scott Yarbrough, uhMerican
Location: Flyover country

Re: Who has gotten Litter Law tickets in 2013?

Post by Yarbrough » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:07 am

prophet wrote:
how does this work with overnight gear?
My personal experience has always been better as a loaded down camper than a day floater. With that being said I go out of my way to "try" and make it look like I know what I'm doing even though that isn't always the case. The dry bags strapped in with their own straps and a NRS strap on just for show. The chairs, the table, everything strapped in. The beer tiddies in use, my personal good luck mesh bag, the strap on the cooler and the life jacket on top and in plain sight not hidden under the seat. All of the small stuff like bug repellent, sun screen yadi yadi yadi all inside dry boxes or bags. Mostly going out of my way for a clean and responsible look. Usually we just get waived through and the renters get to have a conversation.

About 8 years ago I just adopted Codgers way of thinking. I don't like it and I don't agree with it. However I think it is the best plan of action for me and the people I drag with me while floating on the river. I'm like a hawk to my nephews and their idiot friends, making sure they don't have a revenue generator(aka a missing mesh bag) on their boat.

I have wondered, questioned, harped, written and asked G&F to stop trash from getting on the river at the put in. With easy to read and understood signs and enforcement at the put in rather than once it is "on" the river. I have come to the conclusion that the way they do it is exactly the way they want it to be. Henceforth the enforcement officer of these practices just got promoted to head everything.

Ordell Robbie said it best " You can't trust Melanie but you can trust Melanie to be Melanie". Just substitute Melanie for ,,,,,, well you get the picture.

One more thing. I find it comedic that a bunch of grown ups on a message board can't figure out why it is done this way. :crazy:
Dr Ray Stantz: Personally, I liked the university. They gave us money and facilities, we didn't have to produce anything! You've never been out of college! You don't know what it's like out there! I've *worked* in the private sector. They expect *results*

MissEllie
..
..
Posts: 184
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:16 am
Name: Ellanorah Wilson

Re: Who has gotten Litter Law tickets in 2013?

Post by MissEllie » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:29 am

Holly Crap! I am looking at a $195.00 fine for no PFD!

I ask about community service & I would have to do, if the judge would let me, in their area on a weekday under supervision. No way to know if the judge will even consider it.

I should report to court at 8:30 am - live about 2 hours away. The court lady said that I could get their by 9 & be fine.

I mentioned that I was short of funds & community service, picking up trash out of the river etc. would be better for me.

I will just have to throw myself on the mercy of the judge & hope that they are having a good day.

Will keep you posted...

I should have ask for a loaner I was just distracted trying to get everything done.... will never happen again I promise.

This is a very eye opening experience.... the hubby has not laughed yet but he also does not know the price yet.

I am humbled.

Ellie
:kayak:

Dan Daniel
.
.
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:39 pm
Location: Fayetteville, AR
Contact:

Re: Who has gotten Litter Law tickets in 2013?

Post by Dan Daniel » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:33 am

I don't see why we can't have both education and enforcement. Reword the law to say "River Corridor", instead of just "River". Define that to mean below the high water mark. Then, if I have a jar of pickles in the car in the parking lot, no problem, but if that same jar of pickles makes it below the high water mark, or onto the gravel bar forgotten in my cooler, then BOOM, ticket. You get your enforcement(revenue), education(others will see and learn), AND you actually accomplish the goal of the law in the first place. You keep the glass/litter from ever making it on the river, or at least ensure the presence of a trashbag. This would also be a great time to check for the required PFDs. Ultimately, a cleaner, safer waterway is our goal, right? These are pretty simple common sense solutions here, so I guess it could be beneficial to those of us who care, and think, to hear why things are done the way they are now. The checkpoint I went through on the Buffalo had a pile of glass in one of the officer's canoes, and MissEllie was written a ticket for not having a PFD, but she still had to make her way downriver after the ticket was written. Both of these are examples of FAILURE in enforcement and education, yet all of those tickets will be touted as "success". It is this, that makes many of us who do think, and have the best interest of the river at heart, resent the official presence. Why can't we be on the same team here?
I like having an official presence on these high traffic sections of river. Knowing they are there keeps a lot of folks from going overboard, and that's positive. I also thing that sobriety check points near the take-outs of these stretches of river is an example of common sense. These actually keep impaired drivers off the road! How about applying this logic to keeping glass and litter off the river?

One more question. If, after MissEllie was issued her ticket, she continued around a bend or two, and then ended up being hurt because of her lack of PFD, would the ticketing officer have any kind of liability for letting her continue? At what point of MissEllie's incident was she served, or protected?
Last edited by Dan Daniel on Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Richard
.....
.....
Posts: 1428
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:41 am
Location: Conway, AR

Re: Who has gotten Litter Law tickets in 2013?

Post by Richard » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:33 am

When I am approached by an officer, before he/she can say anything, I say I have no glass or cans, I have food secured, and I show them the mesh bag. They smile and go on to someone else.
We are all afflicted with Cognitive Dissonance. The greater our religious, social, financial or political affiliation, the greater the affliction. We hear what we want to hear. We believe what we want to believe. Truth becomes irrelevant.

User avatar
Deuce
ACC President
Posts: 1799
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:09 pm
Name: Luke Coop
Location: Dogtown

Re: Who has gotten Litter Law tickets in 2013?

Post by Deuce » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:29 pm

Yarbrough wrote:
prophet wrote:
One more thing. I find it comedic that a bunch of grown ups on a message board can't figure out why it is done this way. :crazy:
If by "why it is done this way" you mean posting checkpoints halfway down river instead of at the put-in I don't recall anyone claiming not to know the reason for that approach. I also don't disagree with what I'm sure you believe that reason is. ;) That's just not the point of this discussion. They puts 'em where they puts 'em, and as you've conceded there's no convincing them otherwise, so we have to play the hand we're dealt. That's what this is about. They'll never generate revenue from you, me or most anyone else who frequents this board (with the exception of the occasional slip up that can happen to anyone due to human oversight) because we know and comply with the law. This conversation is about holding enforcement personnel to the same standard.
You come too.
Robert Frost

Yarbrough
.
.
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:43 pm
Name: Scott Yarbrough, uhMerican
Location: Flyover country

Re: Who has gotten Litter Law tickets in 2013?

Post by Yarbrough » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:58 pm

Luke, you and I have more in common than we don't, we are on the same page. We have been over this, many many times. For over a decade this question has been asked, talked about, brought up, what have you. Letters have been written.

I do in fact feel bad for the tourist. I seen a guy from Missouri come down for the weekend and rent a canoe on the Mulberry. It was a two thousand dollar weekend. Do you think he will ever come back?

Let me know how pulling out your laminated law card works while staring up at his gun. I mean that even more sarcastically than you think.

Now,,,, please don't hate me. You and I are friends. I am jaded and you are not.
Dr Ray Stantz: Personally, I liked the university. They gave us money and facilities, we didn't have to produce anything! You've never been out of college! You don't know what it's like out there! I've *worked* in the private sector. They expect *results*

User avatar
Deuce
ACC President
Posts: 1799
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:09 pm
Name: Luke Coop
Location: Dogtown

Re: Who has gotten Litter Law tickets in 2013?

Post by Deuce » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:51 pm

Yarbrough wrote: Let me know how pulling out your laminated law card works while staring up at his gun. I mean that even more sarcastically than you think.
:ROFL: A high stakes version of Rochambeau! Probably wouldn't last very long. :wht:
You come too.
Robert Frost

Locked

Social Media

       

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests