Law Enforcement on the Remmel Section

[Half Ton]

I can't see according to the law how a mesh bag trumps a dry bag Kyle. I'd say that the enforcers just can't remember all of the law and don't follow their own.

Typical

[summerbee]

I am for whatever is best for the river and whatever results in less pollution ( insert your own definition here) in, on and around the river. So if my beloved Buffalo experiences a reduction in "trash" as a result in Mr. Officer & river traffic stops...more power to him or her. It isn't always about "us". I like to the the river has "rights" as well. I would bet Dr. Comptom would agree.

[Half Ton]

I'm for the river also.

I'm not sure though that an injustice of littering deserves in injustice of improperly funding, implementing, or interpreting and enforcing a law. Or parts of a law. An injustice to correct an injustice doesn't equal a solution to an epidemic.

Also, I'd like to leave the nps out of the current topic since its primarily focused on enforcement by one entity of the state ( or at least would like to clarify they are not who I'm referencing with my comments)

Most of the trash I see in the rivers (exception elk - heavily enforced-and tourist beer canned)gets washed in from parking lots, access points, road side ditches and other places from the land within a given watershed.

There is a better strategy that could be utilized, and several folks here have spoken to that strategy. Hopefully those comments and suggestions will lead to a needed change to make the enforcement activites more effective and socially acceptable. If not, maybe I'll have some free time open up in the future that I can devote to the process.

Thanks for weighing in summer bee. I appreciate your perspective and stewardship ethic.

[summerbee]

all with a grain of salt.

[Cowper]

I knew there were several signs at the top of the hill on the way to the Remmel put in, so I decided to stop and read them today. One of them is a sign outlining key points of the litter law.

It's pretty small, but it is there.

[rugger]

I've been trying to stay out of this, but its getting harder every time I see something else posted on this topic. It is true that alot of trash is washed into the river after every rain, but how many beer cans have you seen floating on the water after someone tips going over the ledge? 2 weekends ago there was ONE tuber that lost about 2 cases of empty beer cans when he went over...yes he was with a group of people, and no, not a one of them made an effort to recover the cans before they floated down the river!

And "socially acceptable"...REALLY?!? Maybe we should just ask Law Enforcement Officers which laws YOU would like them to enforce and which ones to let slide!!! Better yet, lets not enforce any laws and see how that works out for ya!!!

It takes 5-10 mins to show them your huggie and mesh bag...unless you have something to hide or don't want them to find, I really don't see the problem.

[Half Ton]

Hmm, sounds like you are taking this a little personal. Keep in mind this discussion is very mild compared to the flaming that has politely not taken place.

It seems to me that you don't mind to have your rights violated or that you have the patience and levity to deal with it as is. Well bro, I'm on the other side of that issue.

Maybe you oughtta remember I'm not the only one that does not like a policy of enforcement without education.

Maybe you ought to remember that illegal enforcement is occurring. If those topics don't ring a bell then maybe,
you ought to be standing with your enforcement friends at the PUT IN before the LITTER BUGS are on the river.

Again, proactive. Solve the problem before it happens, not halfway through a trip.

PS - when you've participated in enough lake and creek or lake cleanups and you'll see first hand that a few beer cans pitched by litterbugs in the river is not any where near the amount of trash washing in from floodplains and the greater watershed is where the problem is 99% worse( an exception or three like the elk river exist)

I don't want anybody littering anywhere anytime.

And by the way, a non socially acceptable policy that is fairly ineffective and tax payer funded is the very reason this topic continues to come up year after year after year.

[summerbee]

interesting. kinda like watching the dems and repubs go after each other hammer and tong while china makes off with the family silver.

[Shark Attack]

The sign is at Remmel. I think if the Brownshirts were at the put-in stopping the problem before it happened, the problem would be taken care of. Lurking downstream is kind of a fundraiser!
ratbasturdthugs

[Half Ton]

interesting. kinda like watching the dems and repubs go after each other hammer and tong while china makes off with the family silver.

Nice parallel

Wes, what you said would work a little better for everyone from what I can see.

I'm glad to hear the sign is posted in at least a few places where corrective action is occurring.

[Cowper]

Remember, AGFC folks read this board too. If you want them to think folks with nice PFD's and privately owned boats are "the good guys", then we can't be calling them names here. It is also a direct violation of our message board guidelines.

One member has initiated a conversation with them about adding "education at the put in" to the mix; initial discussions were very positive. I don't want to steal the thunder of the one doing the legwork, so I'm not going to say more.

For my own part, all this talk about river litter got me fired up; just got back from Polk Bayou, which runs right through the City of Batesville and is being considered for development as a water trail by the City Chamber of Commerce. Participants were myself, DeBo, Margaret, and Mikki.

The results:
7 tires
4 batteries
1 large trash barrel
1 orange highway barrel
1 pickle bucket
1 plastic hamper
4 bags of miscellaneous trash
1 barbeque grill

I think we got at least 75% of the visible trash on this section of creek, which I feel pretty good about for a single days effort with a smaller team. The only thing I'm not counting is some abandoned pipelines and the automobiles - several of those are present, all of them old enough that they qualify as historical artifacts, not just trash.

[summerbee]

Very well said, Cowper.
No entity will be perfect. "Bad" cops are out there but, I firmly believe they are outnumbered by the good ones. The greater good for the river is of primary importance. Get out, pick up, haul off. Be nice, do right and don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

[Deuce]

Cowper, that's awesome. My dad grew up in Batesville and I still have family there. I've been driving (or riding in the family truckster stationwagon) by Polk for forty years but have never really given it a look. If I can swing it I'd love to get in on the next TRT expedition up there.

Regarding the mesh bag dust-up, which I'm pleased to say is really not much of a dust-up by internet message board standards, I may have come across as somewhat anti-enforcement, which I most definitely am not. I have no problem being asked to show the friendly officer something I know I'm supposed to have with me any way (for legal compliance and because it's the right and easy thing to do). I know some of the family doesn't see it that way, and that's okay with me. We're all entitled to our opinions 'cause this is 'Murica, but I digress. I just wanted to clarify my position, which is not anti-enforcement but pro-education/enforcement; a one two punch. I don't think enough is being done to inform floaters of this particular law. FWIW, I really do like the idea of someone at the put-in checking and 'splaining. I had to explain it to some of our guests at S&T who were on the water in a borrowed IK with a cooler of beer and no bag or coozies. I didn't have coozies to lend (will henceforth), but I kept their empties in my bag. (Between the Fat Tire cans and the Busch Light Draft cans that was one full bag! )Anywho, they seemed genuinely appreciative of learning the law and understanding the need for it.

To us it seems easy to understand, but so many of the folks who float, especially on a run like Remmel to Rockport, grew up thinking it was perfectly normal to throw their ciggies and Busch cans on the ground (or in the water) when they were done with them 'cause that's what they saw their family and friends do. That probably sounds elitist, and maybe it is, but it's true. Litterers, both the active and the passive kind, don't really see their littering as that big of a problem. Some of them will if properly educated. Some of them won't if properly educated, and they'll only get the message via the officer's pen and pad, hence the one two punch method. Heck, who knows? Maybe some of our fellow critters will even make the connection that litter on land is bad too, kaaaaaaay?

History has shown this to be the most rational and effective approach. Consider the vast improvement in seat belt and car seat law compliance over the last twenty years. Who among us didn't travel thousands of miles sprawled out under the rear windshield or across the rumble seat in the back of the family wagon because our parents didn't know how important seat belts were? I think most of us are old enough to remember the way the seat belt law was implemented; education and enforcement. :myday" As to the question of whether one's litter container must be a mesh bag; as I recall the statute allows a "sturdy container" in lieu of one. Surely a dry bag qualifies as a sturdy container, but I guess that would ultimately be up to da man.

[okieboater]

http://www.agfc.com/fishing/Pages/BoatingPaddling.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


go to the above URL to see the law on mesh bags and coozies

[Cowper]

http://www.agfc.com/fishing/Pages/BoatingPaddling.aspx


go to the above URL to see the law on mesh bags and coozies

No, please DON’T do that, it will only further confuse the issue, since you won’t be looking at the law. You’ll be looking at the old, no longer applicable version of that law, because that webpage has not been updated to correctly state the law after it was revised. To find the current version, go to the keeparkansasbeautiful.com link which is given in the first post on page 2 of this thread.

Dave, I think your post shows exactly why so many folks are frustrated with this issue. You went to the official, AGFC webpage, and it gave you the WRONG information. How could you or anyone else know that? How can we blame or get mad at individual AGFC officers for not knowing the law, when there are still signs, webpages, and probably numerous other resources used by them, including even those maintained by their own agency, that do not correctly relay the updated version of that law? If I’m interpreting footnotes correctly, the original law was passed in 2001; it was revised in 2003. So nine years later, we still have signs, web pages, and folks quoting a version of the law that existed for only 2 years before it was updated/improved.

I’ll make contact with AGFC webmasters and see if I can get them to bring their page up to date and maybe help alleviate some of this confusion. And then I’m packing and going down to Rockport to look for Mandy’s glasses, Dave’s ring, Lance’s paddle, and surf a little. Any day I get to pull a trailer with my truck, and play with both kayaks and motorboats is a GOOD day!

I LOVE RETIREMENT!