Snake Season: what would you do?

[CAPTAIN ALEVE]

I used these $49.99 Whitewater brand snake proof gaiters this spring and didn't really notice them when I had them on:

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/commo ... 21&Go.y=11" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I always wear chaps (also from Cabelas, $19.95) over my legs to combat greenbriars which love to grow near creeks; the chaps covered the gaiters so I can't say if the buckles get snagged on brush or not. No snake has tested the gaiters for me yet. Keeping a lookout for snakes and leaving them alone has always worked for me in the past.

Captain Aleve

[DMG]

Hi, DeBo! You're right that a rice field is not an ecosystem any more than the carbide factory where I work is an ecosystem. One has a mud floor and the other has concrete, but they are both workplaces where people expect to be able to earn a living in relative safety. In my plant, we don't stop at requiring safety glasses but go to great lengths to remove the hazards that create the need for safety glasses in the first place. I'd hope that gaiters are required in a rice field, but I'd also hope that rice producers likewise take steps to remove the hazards that create the need for gaiters in the first place. I don't have the answer for how to remove all the thousands of poisonous snakes that live in rice fields without killing them, but I believe they need to go in order to provide a safe working environment for rice workers. I honestly have no idea how many snakebite injuries occur every year in rice fields, but if the answer is more than zero, I believe that is sufficient justification for removing (killing) the snakes. We can disagree on this point.

The truth is I've never killed a snake in my life. I've never had to. When I was a boy in South Dakota, I new to tell Dad if I saw a rattlesnake in the yard so he could kill it. When I was hiking and fishing in the National Forest land adjacent to our place, I knew to back away slowly from rattlesnakes and then leave them be. That's what I was trained to do from day one. As it was, I sometimes went years in a row without seeing one so it was rarely an issue.

Now I have my own three-year-old son who I don't quite trust to follow all my instructions. If I'm not right next to him, I don't trust him to not touch a snake that he sees in a yard. I keep him right next to me when we're hiking in the woods, but I let him have his space in the yard. For that reason, I'd rather not have poisonous snakes in my yard or even in the overgrown area immediately next to my yard. I live in Springdale--which is also not an ecosystem--and expect to enjoy that level of safety. That's one of the reasons I've chosen to live in a city. So far I've never seen any poisonous snakes in my yard so it hasn't been an issue.

The Cossatot put-in is an ecosystem, albiet one that has had significant human influence. This is a reasonable place for a cottonmouth to be. In fact, I'll even agree that cottonmouths, and the risk of being bitten by a cottonmouth, actually make the Cossatot put-in a better place. I can't state the reason why any more eloquently than you already have. My adventures into the wild would not have been as rich and fulfilling as they have been without the bee stings, chigger bites, broken fingers, grenaded ankles, or even the incredibly painful bout of septic arthritis I suffered in my left knee after not treating woulds quickly enough. Maybe I'd even consider a cottonmouth bite an interesting experience after my prosthesis is fitted, I'm back to work, and the doctors are paid. Indeed, my natural (or perhaps learned) response to seeing a cottomouth caught in the eddy at that put-in would be to grab a paddle and scoot him downstream long enough to launch my boat. I'm in his yard, after all.

So the question now is what would I do if I saw a cottonmouth in my yard? Well, I can tell you positively that I will not return it to the overgrown field right next to my yard. Up till now, I was prepared to kill it, though it would bring my no joy to do so. But now I know more about them. I know that a litter of cottonmouths is called a "clutch" and that clutches often stick together for the first year. I also know more about safety equipment that can help protect my from bites and what to do if I do get bitten. Maybe now, when I do see that poisonous snake in the yard, I won't go straight for the shovel. I might have to, but not before contacting my snake expert friend to learn what other options might be available.

Having said all that, my original post had no point at all other than to blurt out my "bring fangs to a shovel fight" line that I thought was cute even though I knew from your post immediately prior to mine that you loved snakes. It was nasty and I appologize.

~Dave

[DeBo]

Thanks Dave. If you want comprehensive information on snakes, the Arkansas Herpetological Society has a great website with help in identification and great articles like this one,

http://www.herpsofarkansas.com/Main/SnakeBite#Avoiding" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

which will answer many of your questions. They also have a forum for discussion and most herpers are glad to help relocate an unwanted snake for you.

[Jody]

On another note: check out this AMAZING live baby eagle web cam

http://www.suttoncenter.org/eaglecam.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Eric Esche]

Wonderful! Have saved the link to our "favorites" and am sure Susan will call on it to find someone to transplant your shoulderless friends next time she encounters them in the garden or yard. Thank you.

Eric

[Jody]

Great link--exactly the kind of info I was looking for. Sweet poem too. Thanks for posting it. Nice discussion as well.

[rynorris]

The Wiki definition: An ecosystem is a natural unit consisting of all plants, animals and micro-organisms (biotic factors) in an area functioning together with all of the non-living physical (abiotic) factors of the environment. An ecosystem is a completely independent unit of interdependent organisms which share the same habitat. Ecosystems usually form a number of food webs which show the interdependence of the organisms within the ecosystem.[1]

A city on this website is also considered a "human ecosystem".

A rice field is an ecosystem. You would be surprised the number of critters (including humans) that rely on them for their livelyhood.

[Richard]

This is worth reading http://www.extension.org/pages/Summer_a ... eadly_Kind" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In Arkansas, it’s illegal to kill any snake, unless they "pose a reasonable threat or endangerment to persons." An example of a reasonable threat is a snake in the front yard where children are playing; it’s not seeing a snake in the woods while on a walk, McPeake said.

Like pollution, littering and other bad habits. Education is the solution. Thanks Debo.

[Cowper]

I honestly have no idea how many snakebite injuries occur every year in rice fields, but if the answer is more than zero, I believe that is sufficient justification for removing (killing) the snakes. We can disagree on this point.

The truth is I've never killed a snake in my life. I've never had to.

It's OK to disagree on a few points. Even DeBo and I struggle with what to do about certain situations. But don't forget that the snakes in rice fields and grain storage areas equation needs to include consideration of the problems caused by the rodents the snakes are there to eat. Like, what if we're trading 2 non-fatal snakebites per year, for 3 more fatal cases of Hantavirus plus 5 cases of cancer caused by increased use of poisons for pest control?

I'm just saying, there are no easy answers. But it sounds to me like you're keeping an open mind and still thinking it all over, and I'm happy you haven't had to dispatch any yourself.

I've done a few relocations (one copperhead relocated from a yard in town, two rattlesnakes relocated away from camp), but I always measure the distances in miles. I agree carrying it to the edge of the yard would be just silly!

[DMG]

Great information here from everyone! I've never bothered to learn much about poisonous snakes other than to just avoid them. I see them all the time when I'm messing about in the woods but they never seem to show any ill will towards me as long as I give them their space. So functionally, I suppose there isn't much difference between my irrational fear of snakes and someone like DeBo's rational respect for them. The difference is aesthetic. Once the adreniline rush passes, which of us has the richest, most pleasing outdoor experience when we realize we've almost stepped on a snake. I want to enjoy those enounters but right now I just fear them. Perhaps knowledge is the key to making that shift, in which case, I now have some good places to look. It's a big shift to make, though. The fear has been part of me for a long time.

~Dave


Cowper - Just saw your bit here:

Like, what if we're trading 2 non-fatal snakebites per year, for 3 more fatal cases of Hantavirus plus 5 cases of cancer caused by increased use of poisons for pest control?

You're helping me make my point about knowledge being key. This is why me fear of snakes is an irrational fear. For all the rattlesnakes my father killed, it was cancer that finally got him!

[Jody]

Dave,

My journey with the wild world has been one of about 11 years now. When I met Grant I was just a girl who grew up playing in dive bars in my dad's country band. This carries inherent risks of a different sort. Later, I joined my brother's rock band and the risks increased exponentially! hahhaha

But when I finally met Grant when I was in my early 30's I started hanging out in the woods. We got this land out here and moved into an RV while we built our love shack.

during that time, Grant was out a lot working in the oil fields. My 74 year old best friend Herb talked me into getting a hand gun for protection out here. I hated guns. Still kinda do. But he and I went to town and I finally found one that was pretty. A Lady Smith and Wesson 22 snub nose. He handed it to me in the case and told me to go straight to the shooting range to learn how to shoot it. I carried that case by my finger tips---it grossed me out.

When I got to the range i asked the guy to teach me how to shoot. I had not even opened the case to look at the gun after it had come in. He brought me into the range and took the gun out and started shooting it at the target (which was, by the way, in the shape of a male figure). SO FRIGHTENING! Then he had me shoot the gun. Each time I almost started crying. It scared the crap oughta me. The young man at the range was smart enough to realize that i was imagining actually having to use this gun on an intruder. So he changed the target to a generic bull's eye and left the room. I eventually started having fun shooting and got to where I coould basically hit what I was aiming at.

Then I took the gun home and put it up in the closet of our trailer.

A few days later, in the middle of the afternoon, Grant gone, the dogs started barking that "different" kind of bark. (Debo--warning---discontinue reading at this point). I looked out of the trailer and there was a snake all coiled up and hissing in the front yard at my beloved German Shepherd. I kinda freaked. I grabbed the gun and made the dogs get inside the RV. I went out and ....well.....I shot the snake. I was thinking at that time of the newborn child our best friend's had at the time and they came over all the time. That was my justification anyway---justification of my irrational fear.

Afterwards I called my good friend Herb and told him what I had done as I drank the cold Jaeger Meister I had in my freezer. I was shaking and totally whacked out.

Then I saw out the window of the RV that the snake was still moving around. I told Herb ( old school at 74 years old, remember) that the snake was still alive and he told me to go back out there and blankity blank blank the snake with my gun. Buzzed on Jaeger at this point I did what he advised me.

Later, when Grant came home, I told him of the event and there really wasn't anything left to bury.

The next day, the guilt set it.

I am Buddhist after all.

I actually confessed my sin during an all night Native American ceremony and tried to cleanse myself of the act. I cried a lot and expressing this guilt and shame and sadness did help.

It was after that that I started a thread about snakes and Debo began patiently educating me.

But anyway, it is true that education is key. I am forever grateful to Debo because we chose to live out here in woods and must learn to adapt to the wild.

If anyone has read this ridiculously lengthy post, I hope it was somewhat interesting. It is ok to grow and evolve. And even to make mistakes.

Peace,

Jody

[DeBo]

Thanks Jody for sharing that. I didn't stop reading. I think most of us have done things we regret. It becomes part of the learning experience as I know that you know. E. O. Wilson, the great ethno biologist, appreciated snakes and used them as an example of a hardwired emotional response. We share this ingrained response with our primate cousins. It manifests itself as a heightened sense of arousal in the presence of a snake. For any child, Wilson states that this intense arousal can easily be channeled toward fear, revulsion or reverential awe.

This can seen in the way religions view snakes. In ancient Greece they were considered divine as they still are in some Indian religions.

Christianity painted them as evil so western culture is generally fearful of the snake image. I was fortunate enough to be raised in the country by teachers who had a fascination for all creatures and taught me not to fear them.

We kept a Black Rat Snake for a while. His skin was shiny black and in the sun shone with iridescent colors. I could have sat and watched that snake for hours; the way he moved was sensual , like flowing water and way he flicked his tongue, literally tasting the air. I guess I came down on the side of reverential awe.

[Butch Crain]

How would a dog lover feel if every time he told someone about his new puppy they told him a story about how they saw a dog just like that and it barked at them so they clubbed its brains out?

Never thought about it before, but I don't remember ever killing an immature snake - or a puppy - of any kind.

But let a unaccounted for pit bull roam through where my kids played (now where grandkids play), it's dead.

It's one of the unfortunate realities of life that some things, and even some people (pirates, rapists, pedophiles) need killing.

Fortunately, it's also one of our realities that there are kind hearted (although maybe just a little judgemental) people like Debo to balance our society's rough edges.

Keep doing your thing Deb. If I've picked at you, it's only because I envy your kindness.

[Cowper]

But let a unaccounted for pit bull roam through where my kids played (now where grandkids play), it's dead.

It's one of the unfortunate realities of life that some things, and even some people (pirates, rapists, pedofiles) need killing....

Keep doing your thing Deb. If we pick at you, it's only because we envy your kindness.

Since I get up earlier than DeBo, I'll butt in and she can respond later.

I think one of her points is, on the pit bull, or the human "mad dog", you at least know you'll have to defend your decision to others. Part of DeBo's point is that so many just assume that nobody will have a second thought about killing a reptile. All animals experience pain, and something like fear; it is what keeps them from doing those things that cause their own death. But your point is well taken; that is exactly why I said earlier that DeBo and I struggle with some situations. We know a parent with children sharing the same yard might not be able to risk a poisonous snake escaping, while they make phone calls to the local herper. All we would ask of that parent is that they continue to improve their skills at identification, vs. continuing forever the "kill them all" policy.

True story, less than 48 hours old: On Richland this weekend, some of my best paddling buddies saw a copperhead sitting on a rock; they didn't try to harm it, but it delayed one getting back into his boat after he had taken a short break on the shore. At least two more voiced, "yep, it was a copperhead" or similar words. Not having seen it myself, I rushed back, slipped out of my boat, grabbed it and was bitten about 3 times. WHAT??? you say? I'm still working to get better at identification, but one glance and I knew this was a banded water snake; coloration very similar to a copperhead, but head not as triangular; eyes with round pupils, skinnier body. The little devils always run if they can, are very aggressive when grabbed, but his needle-sharp teeth are not long enough to penetrate even the thinnest of gloves, so I never felt the bites.

Protect the kids from the pit viper that moves in under your porch. But also protect them from the disease carrying rodents, by learning to tell the difference and letting those other snakes live.

[Karla]

Well said Cowper. I respect you and Debbie for what you do with the snakes and have learned a lot from you both. I still will avoid one if possible. It is like other things, people's ignorance. Like with the owl Gary and I found on the roadside, we were ignorant but have learned from Debbie, thanks Debbie. Look forward to another swamp trip someday, maybe I won't swim with the snakes this time. :shock:

Keep up what your doing!!

Karla