RIVER CAMPING 101- Ohhhhhhhhh Cr. . .
What we leave behind smells. In the swim is my thinking. It is not as though a river is pee free. Fish, birds, snakes and turtles do it. Why not join in. But just pee please.
We are all afflicted with Cognitive Dissonance. The greater our religious, social, financial or political affiliation, the greater the affliction. We hear what we want to hear. We believe what we want to believe. Truth becomes irrelevant.
I agree with Cowper - the groover system used out west is the way to go - I know Tyler Bend has a dump station, as well as camp-grounds on most Federal/Corps of Engineers built lakes. I don't remember for sure, but I think I've also seen one at Buffalo Point.
Sand and gravel in the river is a natural filter for urine.
Sand and gravel in the river is a natural filter for urine.
Last edited by Bob Stout on Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We do not inherit the EARTH from our Ancestors, we BORROW it from our Children -- Native American Proverb
richard, this is my solution when backpacking. i carry a ziploc of moist wipes like cottonelle. one will do most times. since they are sturdy you can fold neatly and put in used ziploc to carry out. as far as the rest, look for a good sized rock ( they are everywhere in arkansas) and turn it over. now you have a natural hole to squat over and take care of things. when you are through, replace the rock. animals will not disturb and no one is going to step in it. it should be away from the trail and the water.
wally
wally
White Tundra with a Green Mohawk on top.
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Cowper
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I think our methods must be adjusted according to the specific circumstances.
For those of us travelling in small numbers, to areas that don't see a lot of visitation, I'm completely OK with the cathole and the many variations of that. Animals both bigger than us, and smaller than us, go in the woods all the time. Wally, your method classifies as what I would call a "cathole variation".
But Richard's thoughts and questions result from consideration of what is really a very different situation. As we tend to concentrate into larger groups, visiting more heavily travelled areas, like the Buffalo River corridor, the same answers aren't good any more. If most travel 200 feet from the camp or water's edge, then by the end of the summer, we've probably going to have a lot of poo beginning to build up along a roughly circular perimeter about 200 feet from the center of every good gravel bar.
As much as I'm suspicious that this might be another "disposable diaper" type product, for these specific circumstances (wilderness camping in high-use areas) we need to consider using these:
http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product.asp? ... eptid=1004
It might be worth contacting the company to discuss; I'm not clear on just how biodegradable this really is. I've read the product claims; I'm just remaining a bit skeptical until I learn more.
The alternative is to use something more like this:
http://www.eco-safe.net/
(and be willing to deal with the clean-up issue)
I see that a product from the eco-safe company suitable for our smaller group sizes can be had for under $100. (good for 20 uses)
http://www.cascadeoutfitters.com/ (and drill down to the portable toilet options).
Richard - if you have time to do the research and figure out which of these best meets the needs, I'll make the first $10 donation to a group purchase. You can solicit similar donations from those that join your November float (when it is rescheduled). I'll donate independent of whether or not I can make that specific trip.
For those of us travelling in small numbers, to areas that don't see a lot of visitation, I'm completely OK with the cathole and the many variations of that. Animals both bigger than us, and smaller than us, go in the woods all the time. Wally, your method classifies as what I would call a "cathole variation".
But Richard's thoughts and questions result from consideration of what is really a very different situation. As we tend to concentrate into larger groups, visiting more heavily travelled areas, like the Buffalo River corridor, the same answers aren't good any more. If most travel 200 feet from the camp or water's edge, then by the end of the summer, we've probably going to have a lot of poo beginning to build up along a roughly circular perimeter about 200 feet from the center of every good gravel bar.
As much as I'm suspicious that this might be another "disposable diaper" type product, for these specific circumstances (wilderness camping in high-use areas) we need to consider using these:
http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product.asp? ... eptid=1004
It might be worth contacting the company to discuss; I'm not clear on just how biodegradable this really is. I've read the product claims; I'm just remaining a bit skeptical until I learn more.
The alternative is to use something more like this:
http://www.eco-safe.net/
(and be willing to deal with the clean-up issue)
I see that a product from the eco-safe company suitable for our smaller group sizes can be had for under $100. (good for 20 uses)
http://www.cascadeoutfitters.com/ (and drill down to the portable toilet options).
Richard - if you have time to do the research and figure out which of these best meets the needs, I'll make the first $10 donation to a group purchase. You can solicit similar donations from those that join your November float (when it is rescheduled). I'll donate independent of whether or not I can make that specific trip.
Trash: Get a little every time you go!
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robkanraft
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Cowper, the smaller Ecosafe product works with a very small group, like a couple, but I would not rely on it for a group. Our crew carried one "for emergencies" during the day when it was impractical to break out the big groovers, after they were lashed in. The PETT bag systems are not approved for use on most western rivers.
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Cowper
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Rob,
I'm sort of adjusting my answers based on what I think Richard is really poking at -
What should we be doing on local rivers, like the Buffalo, for our overnight trips?
Out west, I think the rules might be changing; from the Middle Fork application information:
Portable toilets, compatible with RV dump facilities, are strongly recommended. Gel bag systems are accepted as long as they meet Type II EPA requirements.
From the PETT website FAQ's:
They are approved for disposal with normal trash as group II non-hazardous waste.
DeBo tells me this change in Middle Fork rules occurred about 3 years ago; I don't know the status on other Western rivers but would guess that the gel bags are becoming acceptable on other rivers as well.
But that question aside, even if the PETT is not allowed on Western rivers, that wouldn't rule out us choosing to voluntarily use it on the Buffalo. The only obstacle would be, do we feel that it is environmentally less responsible than other available alternatives due to it's "disposable" nature?
On the smaller eco-safe system, I realized it said "20 uses". That would barely cover, or maybe not cover, a couple on a 7 day Western trip. But again, applying this to the new application, would it cover a group of 10 for one night on the Buffalo? It seems to me "20 uses" might be enough for this limited application.
I don't disagree with what you said Rob, I'm just trying to sort through the facts and apply them to the question of what direction we should go for our Arkansas application.
The interesting thing is, although I'm not looking forward to having to use these portable toilets here in Arkansas, I've accepted it for years on Western trips, and it presents an interesting opportunity for us, the members of the ACC, to take the lead and set a precendent here at home for lower impact camping.
Looking at the pros and cons of the PETT system vs the various "tank" systems, I think I'd go with the PETT system. When you get right down to it, is it really that different than when one of our cats or dogs makes a mistake in the house, and we dispose of the paper towels used for clean-up in our household garbage?
I'm sort of adjusting my answers based on what I think Richard is really poking at -
What should we be doing on local rivers, like the Buffalo, for our overnight trips?
Out west, I think the rules might be changing; from the Middle Fork application information:
Portable toilets, compatible with RV dump facilities, are strongly recommended. Gel bag systems are accepted as long as they meet Type II EPA requirements.
From the PETT website FAQ's:
They are approved for disposal with normal trash as group II non-hazardous waste.
DeBo tells me this change in Middle Fork rules occurred about 3 years ago; I don't know the status on other Western rivers but would guess that the gel bags are becoming acceptable on other rivers as well.
But that question aside, even if the PETT is not allowed on Western rivers, that wouldn't rule out us choosing to voluntarily use it on the Buffalo. The only obstacle would be, do we feel that it is environmentally less responsible than other available alternatives due to it's "disposable" nature?
On the smaller eco-safe system, I realized it said "20 uses". That would barely cover, or maybe not cover, a couple on a 7 day Western trip. But again, applying this to the new application, would it cover a group of 10 for one night on the Buffalo? It seems to me "20 uses" might be enough for this limited application.
I don't disagree with what you said Rob, I'm just trying to sort through the facts and apply them to the question of what direction we should go for our Arkansas application.
The interesting thing is, although I'm not looking forward to having to use these portable toilets here in Arkansas, I've accepted it for years on Western trips, and it presents an interesting opportunity for us, the members of the ACC, to take the lead and set a precendent here at home for lower impact camping.
Looking at the pros and cons of the PETT system vs the various "tank" systems, I think I'd go with the PETT system. When you get right down to it, is it really that different than when one of our cats or dogs makes a mistake in the house, and we dispose of the paper towels used for clean-up in our household garbage?
Trash: Get a little every time you go!
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Butch Crain
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shuffle...tug...pull..."I know I put that asbestos suit in here...ah, there it is!"
Are the disposable systems being discussed changing an aesthetic problem from along the Buffalo to an environmental problem back home at our municipal sewer systems? Like someone said, there's scores of animals leaving their scat in any given set of forests without any environmental issue. It's not like we're talking about a canyon, big wall, swamp, or alpine tundra where there are special issues with waste.
pphhhhtttt..."Sounds like someone lighting a flamethrower, better get this thing on"
We, like any animal, are part of the environment, not intruders, as long as we show reason by picking up our trash, etc. Many of the studies regarding human waste, and more particularly tp, were done out west in much different environments. With the sandy and loamy soils in our area, thoughtfully placed and thinly covered catholes should suffice shouldn't they? I wonder about the energy consumed in manufacturing the bags and buckets for the removal systems, and that used in the municipal system were it will be dumped.
I know nobody would like this, but if the problem is too many tp blooms, maybe the answer is to simply restrict the numbers of people that can access the river during a season. In 30 years of daily work in the field, I can emphatically say that in our climate the only issue is numbers of people leaving waste in the forest (a logging crew say as opposed to me & another guy cruising timber). In either case, I believe the problem is aesthetic, not environmental, at least in our climate and with our soils.
hurry, zip it up! zip it up!
Flamers, do your dirt.
Are the disposable systems being discussed changing an aesthetic problem from along the Buffalo to an environmental problem back home at our municipal sewer systems? Like someone said, there's scores of animals leaving their scat in any given set of forests without any environmental issue. It's not like we're talking about a canyon, big wall, swamp, or alpine tundra where there are special issues with waste.
pphhhhtttt..."Sounds like someone lighting a flamethrower, better get this thing on"
We, like any animal, are part of the environment, not intruders, as long as we show reason by picking up our trash, etc. Many of the studies regarding human waste, and more particularly tp, were done out west in much different environments. With the sandy and loamy soils in our area, thoughtfully placed and thinly covered catholes should suffice shouldn't they? I wonder about the energy consumed in manufacturing the bags and buckets for the removal systems, and that used in the municipal system were it will be dumped.
I know nobody would like this, but if the problem is too many tp blooms, maybe the answer is to simply restrict the numbers of people that can access the river during a season. In 30 years of daily work in the field, I can emphatically say that in our climate the only issue is numbers of people leaving waste in the forest (a logging crew say as opposed to me & another guy cruising timber). In either case, I believe the problem is aesthetic, not environmental, at least in our climate and with our soils.
hurry, zip it up! zip it up!
Flamers, do your dirt.
Last edited by Butch Crain on Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cowper
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Naw, Butch - we're saying some of the same things, just in different words. And I used too many words, so my "we're animals too" comment was buried under a pile of, well, you know...
On my last overnighter to the Buffalo, I did not observe human waste as a problem. On the overnighter before that, some minor problems were noted.
On the Eleven Point, human waste was a MAJOR problem. I don't ever want to see the Buffalo get like that. Soils and climate for these two rivers are almost identical.
So I agree with your "number of users" comment completely - I'm just wondering if the Buffalo has reached the density where we need to do something differently. And if I have to choose between a "carry it out" policy, and a permit system that limits my access similar to the classic Western rivers, I'll happily carry it out to retain more freedom of access.
The tank systems are a bit messier, but I think they address both issues - the waste isn't left in high-use areas, and it is carried back out for processing in a facility designed to handle high volumes of waste without adding disposable, "biodegradable" bags to the mix. The tanks use resources to make, but so does the canoe, the paddle, the tent, etc, so I think the only debate should be over the non-reuable, "disposable" elements of whatever system is chosen.
Like you, I fully intend to use some type of "cathole" method when visiting 99% of the places I go. I'm also mentally prepared to switch to a Western-style alternative for "high use" rivers like the Buffalo.
On my last overnighter to the Buffalo, I did not observe human waste as a problem. On the overnighter before that, some minor problems were noted.
On the Eleven Point, human waste was a MAJOR problem. I don't ever want to see the Buffalo get like that. Soils and climate for these two rivers are almost identical.
So I agree with your "number of users" comment completely - I'm just wondering if the Buffalo has reached the density where we need to do something differently. And if I have to choose between a "carry it out" policy, and a permit system that limits my access similar to the classic Western rivers, I'll happily carry it out to retain more freedom of access.
The tank systems are a bit messier, but I think they address both issues - the waste isn't left in high-use areas, and it is carried back out for processing in a facility designed to handle high volumes of waste without adding disposable, "biodegradable" bags to the mix. The tanks use resources to make, but so does the canoe, the paddle, the tent, etc, so I think the only debate should be over the non-reuable, "disposable" elements of whatever system is chosen.
Like you, I fully intend to use some type of "cathole" method when visiting 99% of the places I go. I'm also mentally prepared to switch to a Western-style alternative for "high use" rivers like the Buffalo.
Trash: Get a little every time you go!
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Butch Crain
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Just kidding about the firethrowing Cowper - if I didn't think you and a lot of other thoughtful people weren't there, I wouldn't even try.
Back to the restricted access. This reminds me of the forest industry's position regarding environmental restrictions, regulations, and BMP's several years back. We (industry) didn't want them (anybody else) telling us how to run our business and drug our feet in cleaning up our acts. The consequence was regulation that wouldn't have happened if industry had been more proactive.
I've been on the Buffalo now exactly 1 time ever, and it was quite an experience, maybe partially because of the group I was with, but certainly also because of the venue. If there were a lottery, fairly administrated for all, that I never won, I'd count myself lucky for the one visit and go on to one of the other million places I haven't seen yet. Plenty of new spots to leave my mark in, if you know what I mean.
Is it time maybe for the ACC to be proactive?
Back to the restricted access. This reminds me of the forest industry's position regarding environmental restrictions, regulations, and BMP's several years back. We (industry) didn't want them (anybody else) telling us how to run our business and drug our feet in cleaning up our acts. The consequence was regulation that wouldn't have happened if industry had been more proactive.
I've been on the Buffalo now exactly 1 time ever, and it was quite an experience, maybe partially because of the group I was with, but certainly also because of the venue. If there were a lottery, fairly administrated for all, that I never won, I'd count myself lucky for the one visit and go on to one of the other million places I haven't seen yet. Plenty of new spots to leave my mark in, if you know what I mean.
Is it time maybe for the ACC to be proactive?
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RIORESIDENT
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kinda scary, but can be handled. Not for the timid, but in the past, on self- support kayak trips. I, and others used a pringles can. I know........yuk!. but in areas of high concentration camping, it made sence to us to do what we could to reduce out impact. it was great for the pristien beaches, but when it was "okay" for a cat hole, that was the ticket.
the place that this was used was the black Canyon of the gunnison. it doesn't get a whole lot of use, but the use it does get is evident in areas.
P.s. Duct tape over the whole thing, with a piece of webbing taped like a nalgen would be taped, just make sure your get the lid secure :shock:
Rio~
the place that this was used was the black Canyon of the gunnison. it doesn't get a whole lot of use, but the use it does get is evident in areas.
P.s. Duct tape over the whole thing, with a piece of webbing taped like a nalgen would be taped, just make sure your get the lid secure :shock:
Rio~
"Be who you are, say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those that matter don't mind."
Dr Seuss
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Whitewater Frames and Accessories
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PARTNER STEEL DEALER
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robkanraft
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okieboater
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- Name: David L. Reid
- Location: Jenks, Oklahoma
I have a eco safe system with an extra tank that I purchased some years ago for western river trips. Depending on the volume per pooper person, it handles 40 or more poops per tank. Takes two rocket boxes and at the end of the trip you find a RV dump facility, hook up the water hose and wash the collected poo into the RV dump. I could go into a lot of discription on how to use a eco safe system, transport the system and most importantly clean it out. The strange fact I have discovered about river poop systems is there is 100 percent group support when it comes to the announcement as to where the "Groover" is set up. Maybe 20 percent support when it comes to setting up or taking down or transporting the Groover System and amazing little support when it comes to cleaning out the groovers at the end of a trip. I know from personal experience when it comes to cleaning out the groover - volunteer groover clean out help is when you find out who is a real supporter of taking care of the river polution and who is not. Breaking up solidified clumps of poo with a stick so they will flush out the container is a class 5 plus move, this is where a big time nose clip comes in real handy.
I doubt if me and Bobby have room for a couple rocket boxes even in Bob's big time tandem canoe. But, we could prolly make room for at least one rocket box if some one else would help us with other parts of the "load".
If I can get some help on transport and clean up, no problem with me bringing said system on the Lower Buffalo Float, Camp and Poop trips.
I doubt if me and Bobby have room for a couple rocket boxes even in Bob's big time tandem canoe. But, we could prolly make room for at least one rocket box if some one else would help us with other parts of the "load".
If I can get some help on transport and clean up, no problem with me bringing said system on the Lower Buffalo Float, Camp and Poop trips.
Okieboater AKA Dave Reid
We are not sure when childhood ends and adulthood begins.
We are sure that when retirement begins, childhood restarts
We are not sure when childhood ends and adulthood begins.
We are sure that when retirement begins, childhood restarts
Dave, you hit on what I am worried about. The thought of having to tend to the Honey Bucket leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Yuck!
Groovers are essential on multiday western trips. Cat holes etc. are still allowed on the Buffalo.
I have two systems now. Potty chair and Luggable Loo. I am thinking about taking the LL next time with a liner bag.
The procedure will be for the deposits to be made in the LL.
TP will be placed in a paper bag after each use and the bag will be the last thing in the fire before dowsing.
The LL contents will be left in a shallow trench in the woods above the gravel bar to decompose.
The used liner bag and gloves will be placed in another bag for transport home and proper disposal.
Hopefully the seat and bucket will require minimal cleaning.
Has anyone had experience with the luggable loo. Am I being overly optimistic?
I have done something I have been meaning to do for 10 years. I have ordered the definitive book on the subject by Kathleen Meyer. Maybe it will shed new light on the subject.
Groovers are essential on multiday western trips. Cat holes etc. are still allowed on the Buffalo.
I have two systems now. Potty chair and Luggable Loo. I am thinking about taking the LL next time with a liner bag.
The procedure will be for the deposits to be made in the LL.
TP will be placed in a paper bag after each use and the bag will be the last thing in the fire before dowsing.
The LL contents will be left in a shallow trench in the woods above the gravel bar to decompose.
The used liner bag and gloves will be placed in another bag for transport home and proper disposal.
Hopefully the seat and bucket will require minimal cleaning.
Has anyone had experience with the luggable loo. Am I being overly optimistic?
I have done something I have been meaning to do for 10 years. I have ordered the definitive book on the subject by Kathleen Meyer. Maybe it will shed new light on the subject.
We are all afflicted with Cognitive Dissonance. The greater our religious, social, financial or political affiliation, the greater the affliction. We hear what we want to hear. We believe what we want to believe. Truth becomes irrelevant.
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