Law Enforcement on the Remmel Section

[Cowper]

Re: Rafting Gone Wild - Wow!

There seems to be a lot of good litter-related information at http://www.keeparkansasbeautiful.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In particular, there is a link to the full text of Arkansas litter laws:

http://www.keeparkansasbeautiful.com/im ... %20act.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here’s the part that we discuss the most:

8-6-418. Possession or use of glass containers on navigable waterways.
(a)(1) Except for containers for medicinal substances contained in a first-aid kit or prescribed by a licensed physician, and except as provided under subdivision (a)(2) of this section, no person shall possess or use glass containers within a vessel within the banks of Arkansas' navigable waterways.
(2) A person engaged in removing glass previously discarded by others and found within the banks of an Arkansas navigable waterway may not be charged with a violation of this section on the basis of possession of glass, if while underway and upon a waterway, he or she transports the removed glass securely in a trash container.
(b)(1) A person entering, traveling upon, or otherwise using Arkansas' navigable waterways by canoe, kayak, inner tube, or other vessel easily susceptible to swamping, tipping, rolling, or otherwise discharging its contents into a waterway, and transporting foodstuffs or beverages shall:
(A) Transport all foodstuffs and beverages in a sturdy container and ensure that the container is made to seal or lock in the contents to prevent the contents from spilling into the water;
(B)(i) Carry and affix to the vessel a trash container or bag suitable for containing his or her refuse, waste, and trash materials and capable of being securely closed.
(ii) The trash container or bag shall be either a sturdy container, of a construction similar to a sturdy container, or a bag of mesh construction;
(C)(i) Except as provided under subdivision (b)(1)(C)(ii) of this section, transport all his or her refuse, waste, and trash either in a sturdy container or in a trash container to a place where the refuse, waste, and trash may be safely and lawfully disposed of.
(ii) A person engaged in removing items of refuse, waste, and trash materials previously discarded by others and found by him or her within the banks of an Arkansas navigable waterway and that are too large to be transported in a trash container or bag, may not be charged with a violation of this section on the basis
of possession and transportation of the refuse, waste, and trash; and
(D) At all times other than when a beverage is securely contained in a sturdy container or a trash container as in subdivisions (b)(1)(A)-(C) of this section, keep the beverage attached to or held within a floating holder or other device designed to prevent the beverage from sinking beneath the surface of the waterway.
(2) Neither a sturdy container nor a trash container may be required of a person traveling without foodstuffs or beverages.
(c)(1) A violation of this section shall be a misdemeanor and each violation may be prosecuted as a separate offense.
(2) Each violation shall be punishable by a fine of not more than five hundred dollars ($500).
(d) For purposes of this section:
(1) "Navigable waterway" means any navigable river, lake, or other body of water used or susceptible to being used in its natural condition by canoe, kayak, innertube, or other vessel easily susceptible to swamping, tipping, or rolling and located wholly or partly within this state;
(2) "Sturdy container" shall not include a container that is:
(A) Primarily constructed of styrofoam; or
(B) So constructed that it may be easily broken; and
(3) "Vessel" shall not include a houseboat, party barge, johnboat, runabout, ski boat, bass boat, or similar craft not easily susceptible to swamping, tipping, or rolling.
History. Acts 2001, No. 803, § 1; 2003, No. 1101, § 1.

[Cowper]

they need to be at the putin tellin people the rules before they ever get on the river by the time people get to the check point the glass is already in the river

Those are pretty good points. The same law that makes it illegal to litter also includes this:

“The state shall erect signs containing pertinent portions of this subchapter along the public highways of this state and in all campgrounds and trailer parks, forestlands, and recreational areas, at all public beaches, and at other public places where persons are to be informed of the existence and content of this subchapter and the penalties for violating its provisions.”

While I support the actions to enforce and fine those who are violating this law, you do have to wonder, what if instead of using 12 officers to set up one checkpoint, they had dispatched 2 officers each to 6 different put-in points, to walk around, check for glass, and make people actually tie their mesh bag to a thwart before they started down the river? How much litter could we keep out of the river using that approach? This could be a starting point for some very positive discussions with AG&FC folks.

I actually found a little “spare time” this morning to go find and read some of the Arkansas litter laws. Here are some interesting points I extracted:

Point 1:
The Gatorade bottle bungied in your boat might be legal, because of these words: “At all times other than when a beverage is securely contained in a sturdy container or a trash container as in subdivisions (b)(1)(A)-(C) of this section, keep the beverage attached to or held within a floating holder or other device designed to prevent the beverage from sinking beneath the surface of the waterway.” But if you want to take a drink, technically you would have to pull your boat up on the bank, out of the waterway, unless you put it in a cozy or attach it to something while taking that drink.

Point 2:
The law that now exists contains several improvements as a direct result of ACC efforts a number of years ago. We contacted and requested meetings with AG&FC, the legislator who drafted the original law, and other stakeholders. Those meetings led directly to these new provisions being added to the law:

“A person engaged in removing glass previously discarded by others and found within the banks of an Arkansas navigable waterway may not be charged with a violation of this section on the basis of possession of glass, if while underway and upon a waterway, he or she transports the removed glass securely in a trash container.”

“A person engaged in removing items of refuse, waste, and trash materials previously discarded by others and found by him or her within the banks of an Arkansas navigable waterway and that are too large to be transported in a trash container or bag, may not be charged with a violation of this section on the basis of possession and transportation of the refuse, waste, and trash;”

Inclusion of the “other sturdy container” language (the original law said it HAD to be a “bag of mesh construction”, so it didn’t matter how bulletproof your trash container was, if it wasn’t mesh)

Wording that specifically noted containers “constructed primarily of Styrofoam” (like styrofoam ice chests) are NOT considered study containers.


Point 3:
If you violate the laws on mesh bags, glass possession, etc, you’re basically subject only to a $500 maximum fine for each offense. BUT IF YOU ACTUALLY LITTER, on first offense you are guilty of a misdemeanor, a fine up to $1000, and could be sentenced up to 8 hours of community service picking up litter. Second offense, up to $2000 and up to 24 hrs.

The law also includes this provision for litter bugs: “In addition to those penalties, any violator may also be required to remove litter from alongside highways and at other appropriate locations for any prescribed period.” [emphasis added] Now there’s a provision I’d like to see used more often!


Point 4:
Where the money goes – it is not to the AG&F like you might think – those guys are just doing their jobs. The money goes to the Arkansas General Assembly. BUT, here’s a kicker: If the community or county in which the littering occurs is an official “Keep Arkansas Beautiful” or “Keep America Beautiful” affiliate, then the money goes to the local government to be used for whatever they want to use if for. Hardy Arkansas could probably fund 100% of their city government on this provision!


I guess the next question becomes, is anybody fired up enough about this to go do something, like meet with AG&FC to suggest/request specific things that could be done to better inform the public, and/or additional enforcement actions we think they should take like maybe ticketing those who turn over and actually dump litter into the river at the Rockport ledge or elsewhere? I don't want to lead the charge, but if someone wants to do this, I'll commit right now to attend those meetings with you and help in the discussions in any way I can.

[Half Ton]

(Here we go again....grumble.... Think happy thoughts)

Jan, I LIKE your style! Tim, I'm with ya. Water hog you said it, hastle can indeed go both ways! Jim, your a role model of mine although we've never met. Clif, thanks for urging civility and alternate routes of less resistance to achieve the same end. Really good points by everyone all around in my opinion. Discussion is good.

I remember the phrase " enforcement without education" that another member brought up in the past when it comes to describing the system currently in place by Agfc. Not my phrase, but It captured most of the sentiment that I had about the issue at the time.

In looking at Cowpers great research and in noticing that some changes have occurred through addressing the issue and engaging the policy makers I have some hope for further change. I'd also like to thank everyone that worked on the issue in the past to make it a little better than it is now ( including instigators of the issue that realized something was just not right and expressed their concern).

I am really proud the club is in the ring, and has go'ers and do'ers though that can commit time for helping us address the issue with the decision makers. We can't be having folks not wanting to come to Arkansas or to travel across the state to see some great waters because they don't want to deal with a hastle that is mostly avoidable by the pickers and choosers out there.

Cowper, I really like your approach here and hope that a few folks do come together to reapproach the topic for further improvements to the system in place now.

[Deuce]

“The state shall erect signs containing pertinent portions of this subchapter along the public highways of this state and in all campgrounds and trailer parks, forestlands, and recreational areas, at all public beaches, and at other public places where persons are to be informed of the existence and content of this subchapter and the penalties for violating its provisions.”

Clearly this has not been done, at least not that I've noticed. It would be easy to say something like: They have resources to create and post signs complete with color renderings of limits and slot limits on bred and stocked fish, but no resources to create and post signs to educate the ignorant (not a pejorative) as mandated by a section of the law they are expending manpower to enforce. However, rather than state the obvious and further imflame the passions of those with axes to grind (don't have anyone in mind ) I'd prefer to ask someone who can provide a real answer what I can do to help them rectify that oversight. I would be delighted to sit down with that person and offer to do anything within my power to get these signs made and erected, including helping with the wording and taking them to the appropriate places myself and putting them up with my own hot little hands. TRT could engender a brand new wholly owned subsidiary, TPS. No, not this TPS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fy3rjQGc6lA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;! Team Putin Signs!

Cowper, I'm joking because that's what I do, but I'm also very serious. I will do whatever I can to help.

[Clif]

I, also, could assist. More time these days but chaotic schedule still. Can and am called to work on short notice.

[we66erno1]

I wonder who's responsibility it is to put these signs up. Because if i was an attorney, I would call that any ticket given to anyone on a waterway where a sign is not erected, a unlawful ticket. Below is the actual location, chapter and verse of the State's requirement to notify the public.

8-6-410. Notice to the public required.
The state shall erect signs containing pertinent portions of this subchapter along the public highways of
this state and in all campgrounds and trailer parks, forestlands, and recreational areas, at all public beaches,
and at other public places where persons are to be informed of the existence and content of this subchapter
and the penalties for violating its provisions.
History. Acts 1977, No. 883, § 8; A.S.A. 1947, § 82-3908.

****I wonder if you could call the enforcement of the above law nullified before a judge, if a sign was not erected.

All rental/livery companies should be required to have a form that explains the rules of the river, when it comes to glass, mesh bags, Styrofoam, floating devices, and other rules concerning the laws of a rented "vessel" that is not a part of this exception: "Vessel" shall not include a houseboat, party barge, johnboat, runabout, ski boat, bass boat, or
similar craft not easily susceptible to swamping, tipping, or rolling

And if someone disagrees with that, please notice that all livery owners are required to provide a mesh bag and a PFD. Either because of Game and Fish or because of their insurance.

And in my opinion all livery companies should be held responsible for any glass that is not exempted from the law,found in their rented equipment. I promise that will have a quicker impact, then putting up signs. Because most people that have invested in their own gear, have an understanding of the laws concerning their new 'Vessel". Not saying everyone, but most do.

[we66erno1]

I wonder who's responsibility it is to put these signs up. Because if i was an attorney, I would call that any ticket given to anyone on a waterway where a sign is not erected, a unlawful ticket. Below is the actual location, chapter and verse of the State's requirement to notify the public.

8-6-410. Notice to the public required.
The state shall erect signs containing pertinent portions of this subchapter along the public highways of
this state and in all campgrounds and trailer parks, forestlands, and recreational areas, at all public beaches,
and at other public places where persons are to be informed of the existence and content of this subchapter
and the penalties for violating its provisions.
History. Acts 1977, No. 883, § 8; A.S.A. 1947, § 82-3908.

****I wonder if you could call the enforcement of the above law nullified before a judge, if a sign was not erected.

All rental/livery companies should be required to have a form that explains the rules of the river, when it comes to glass, mesh bags, Styrofoam, floating devices, and other rules concerning the laws of a rented "vessel" that is not a part of this exception: "Vessel" shall not include a houseboat, party barge, johnboat, runabout, ski boat, bass boat, or
similar craft not easily susceptible to swamping, tipping, or rolling

And if someone disagrees with that, please notice that all livery owners are required to provide a mesh bag and a PFD. Either because of Game and Fish or because of their insurance.

And in my opinion all livery companies should be held responsible for any glass that is not exempted from the law,found in their rented equipment. I promise that will have a quicker impact, then putting up signs. Because most people that have invested in their own gear, have an understanding of the laws concerning their new 'Vessel". Not saying everyone, but most do.

[Half Ton]

I'm with you on the first part of the previous post, but when you put the responsibility to enforce or b penalized because you didn't inspect a cooler of a renter i'm out because the cost of supporting the law is then being carried out by a business instead of the state or agency that made the law.

Duece and Clif thanks for your willingness to get after the educational signage

[powrachute_pilot]

The game and fish officers were back out today. Our encounter was a little aggravating. A couple in our group were given warning citations for not having a mesh bag. Clearly the officers did not even know the laws that they were attempting to enforce. Neither boat receiving a warning had foodstuffs nor beverages yet the individuals were told that they had to have a mesh bag. Unless I'm reading the rule below incorrectly, a mesh bag should not have been required.

(2) "Neither a sturdy container nor a trash container may be required of a person traveling without foodstuffs or beverages."

Just needed to vent a little.

[Karla]

I agree that signs at put in need to be erected. Also just look at the trash on the bank at the put in and some in the water at the banks edge. They need to be catching them at the put in for littering also.

[plaidpants]

We all have our opinions about check points on the river. So here is mine. I do not feel the check points should be between the put in and take out. It should be at the put in. This is where they could give you the chance to make good on the laws. A check point half way down river gives the people disobeying the laws a chance to have alreadt dumped or sunk cans and bottle in the river. The same with check point at the take out. One thing about a take out check point is to make sure no one drives intoxicated and could cause someones life to be gone in a flash.

As for posting signs. It is our responsibilty to know the laws before we start to do anything including driving our vehicles. Now that is a very broad statement but let me try to explain myself. I was in a car accident n Tennessee one year. My child seat for my daughter passed federal laws while I was stationed at Fort Sill, OK. However the car seat was not good enough for the state of Tennessee. The officer told me then it was up to me to know the laws of every state I drive in. Can you imagine all the signs needing to be posted at the state line and the traffic back up with people reading those signs. How many tax dollars are we willing to spend to create all these signs. Yea I know this is one of those dang it if you do and dang it if you don't.

So no matter where you float or drive it is up to you to know the laws like it or not. If you are legal who cares about check points as long as they are not rude law enforcement officers.

[Deuce]

I concur with the basis of your argument. Ignorance of the law is no excuse for noncompliance. However, in this case one section of the statute mandates signage that informs the public of the regulations. The signs aren't there, which in my mind means the authorities are enforcing rules of which they themselves are in violation. I'm not suggesting the enforcement stop, nor am I blaming the officers doing their jobs. I'm only suggesting the agency should comply with its own laws in their entirety, not just the enforcement component. Seems reasonable to me. I do agree it would make a lot more sense for them to stage enforcement at the put in rather than the take out, but that belief is predicated on the assumption that their primary goal is clean streams and not revenue. Maybe they're trying to increase revenue so they can afford signs.

[FloatingBear]

Unfortunately we have a problem with excess use of alcohol on the river. Personaly I would rather share the river with AGFC than the drunks. Loud drunks anoy me!!!

[rugger]

"Unfortunately we have a problem with excess use of alcohol on the river. Personaly I would rather share the river with AGFC than the drunks. Loud drunks anoy me!!!

AMEN!!!!!!

[BMuu]

The whole mesh bag thing really confuses me. I prefer to stick what little trash I have with me back into my dry bag until I get home. Is this unlawful? How is a mesh bag going to be better than this?