Arkansas Canoe Club Forums

I think both Jeremy and Fish were right about their "how important is hull speed" answers, even though they said the opposite thing!

If you're on a "big water" creek, or using your creeker as a big water general river runner, then you need the speed so you can go where you want to go instead of where the river wants to push you.

If you're on a low volume creek, the speed isn't so important, and the extra hull length that gave you that speed may work against you when the really tight moves are called for.

IMHO, that's why creek boats were getting shorter and shorter a few years ago, and have now drifted back to a few slightly longer designs with the optimum "compromise" seeming to land somewhere in the general range of 8' to 8'-6". Will we still think that's "perfect" 5 years from now? Probably not. And if we do, there will just be some really hot team boaters pulling off incredible moves in shorter (or longer) boats to keep us coming back to the store.

Cowper, maybe the "Skreem" will be re invented and be remolded.

Just found this review on the Villain...one of the first that isn't by a sponsored/team boater.

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/ ... post185685

I recently demoed (flatwater) several whitewater boats at the "paddling in paradise" event, including the Villain S. Thanks to L&C and OMT for letting us try em out.

I have been keeping an eye out for creekers/river runners for the past three years. I'm getting tired of renting boats and am ready to buy my first. In the interest of full disclosure, I do consider myself less experienced than most WW paddlers (only rolled in a pool a few times), but I have been increasing my paddling addiction over the past few years. With that grain of salt, here are my observations:

I've paddled the 2008 model JK Heroes that the HPER rents out for the past two years, and am a big fan (may soon purchase one of these or the earlier model). But, if I could afford it, after paddling both the Hero and Villain S, I'd lean slightly toward the Villain S. Both are very stable boats, and very maneuverable. The Villain is just a bit easier to make sharp turns, but still has just enough edge that I'd think I could catch eddies without too much difficulty. It also has better hull speed. My friend said he thought the Villain was too easy to spin (and had very little tracking), but I had no problem paddling in a straight line on a somewhat windy lake. I felt both boats have great control, and the Villain was just slightly more responsive.

I tried the Wavesport Diesel, liked the speed, but it seemed to be more "tippy" than the JK boats when it came to secondary stability. People told me I would like the Dagger Mamba, but it seemed to me to be a Hero wannabe, with slightly less secondary stability and decreased hull speed. I did really like the Dagger Nomad 8.1. Very responsive and stable with good hull speed. I felt it was a great boat.

Now as I am a poor starving grad student, I am not demanding "the very best", but I am not known for settling. But if money wasn't an object, I'd buy the Villain S in a heartbeat. Too new to show up used on ACC forums, but I'll be watching. My next choice would be a tough decision between the 2008 Hero and the Nomad 8.1. Both are great boats, but I'd think I'd lean slightly to the Nomad for the marginally faster hull speed and responsiveness. I'd probably buy the Hero if it was $100 less than the Nomad though.

I'm considering buying a 2005 model Hero that I'm going to try soon, and I have some high hopes. I hear it is slightly less volume than the 2008 model, but faster and slightly more rounded. I'm guessing there will be a small loss of stability, but I'm hoping it will still be acceptable for my ability level. If you've compared the 2005 model Hero with the 2008 or any of the other boats I've mentioned above, I'd like to hear your opinions/comparisons.

If you haven't tried the Villain S, and you are looking for a good creeker/river runner, you owe it to yourself to demo this boat. You'll probably like it.

-Tony

In my opinion if you are just going to have one WW boat & especially if just starting out I would think the 2nd generation Hero would be much preferred to the the Nomad or Villian S because:

1) you can probably find a used boat

2) if you just had one boat & aren't doing anything harder than class III having a planing hull would allow you to have more fun on the river including easier to surf

3) if you did later buy some sort of play boat you'd be more used to a planing hull

4) from everything I've read the 2nd generation Hero is much better than the 1st generation Hero unless you are doing some sort of slalom racing

my 2 cents,
MP

Mike_P wrote: from everything I've read the 2nd generation Hero is much better than the 1st generation Hero unless you are doing some sort of slalom racing

DeBo has a first generation Hero, and Mike is correct, the first gen and second gen Heroes are such different boats, they shouldn't even have the same name. Second gen turns much faster, has way more primary stability and plays much better. First gen is faster downriver, but not what most WW folks are looking for in these days of sub-six foot playboats. Also, due to the lack of primary stability, the first gen heroes are not a good boat to use as a "loaner" for folks you're trying to get started in kayaking - it needs to be paddled by someone who already has a good brace and/or roll.

Back to the original subject, OOO now has a Villain S demo available, and last I checked a Villain S in stock. (mine is on order and should arrive any day now...)

Cowper did you ever get your Villan...how do you like it?

I should check this forum more often - sorry for the delayed answer.

Yes, my Villain S arrived. So has dry weather - I haven't had a chance to paddle it on any creeks yet; Richland ran once on a day I had to go to a funeral, so I missed it. Live every day to the fullest; you never know which one will be your last...

I did outfit the boat; thanks to Jackson's system that is not the long drawn-out affair that used to come with getting a new boat, just a little foam trimming on the forward bulkhead to adjust for your approximate leg Length. This is an "optimization" thing, anyone who needed to could take the boat straight from the store to the river without any major problems.

I'm a bit over 5'-9", and I think anyone over about 5'10" or 5'-11" would want to consider going with the Villain instead of the Villain S. Both are good; I'm just real near the break-over point between boat sizes.

For moving water, I'll have to stick to my "first impressions" above until I get more WW time; for now, all I can add is that the boat rolls like a dream.