SAVE the BUFFALO RIVER - Mgm't Plan input time (DUE AUG 31)

[Bob Stout]

Butch, I agree with you - the permit system used on western rivers and the associated equipment inspection by BLM or Forest Service personal insures that each party that utilizes the river is equiped with the necessary gear - i.e., grover (portable toilet), fire-pan, etc., to protect the quality of the river.

[prophet]

wondering how a permit system works for spur of the moment trips.

is the hailstone part of this plan too?

[mohawklady]

I checked out the website, and for those of you in the NW ARK, there will be a meeting at the Jones center in Springdale on Wednesday the 8th of June starting at 3:30 pm going to 7 pm. I plan on attending...Pam

[Lupe]

Note- that meeting is July 8 in Springdale (I know Pam...it's Monday after a long weekend)

Here's the link again to see if and when there is a meeting in your area. Note, July 14 they will have one here in Little Rock.

http://www.nps.gov/buff/gmp_info.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cheers,
Heather (aka Lupe)

[Butch Crain]

How are permit/lottery systems administered in other parts of the country? A bi-annual selection awarding permits for July-January & February-June should allow for spur of the moment trips and rainfall events. The key would be allowing no more than the "carrying capacity" over a year's time.

Weight the lottery "entries" so that for every application Arkansans, including outfitters, get 5 entries into a six month lottery; those outside Arkansas, but within a 500 mile radius of some central point along the Buffalo get 3 entries; all other U.S. citizens get 2 entries; international applications get a single entry in the lottery.

Have those selected submit to inspection of their equipment upon presenting their lottery permit to a ranger's station.

[prophet]

i just don't see a workable permit system for the Buffalo that doesn't severely detract from user's enjoyment due to the many access points, last minute trips, swimmers only, wade fishers, hunters crossing the river in boats, etc.

seems like such a system would require personnel at lots of access points and floating the river, which would probably reduce the problems by itself.

[Richard]

I agree with the prophet on this one.
But we do need to make every reasonable effort to inform the public on proper waste disposal. It should be a manditory check off procedure for every outfitter.

[Mtngal]

Having never experienced a permit system and living in Newton county where we frequently do "at the drop of a hat" floats, I don't see how a permit system would accommodate that. Plus we mostly float week days when we have the river to ourselves. I thoroughly agree with the pollution worries, but am not convinced that the limited week end use that occurs on the upper reaches of the Buff justify limiting use. The season, if it's a good one, may run from February to June which is potentially 20 +- weekends of fairly heavy use. Then from Monday to Friday there is little use. The other 7 months (July thru' January) are usually little to no floating. Then if the rains don't fall at the "right" time forget the seasonal floating.

Okay, I've probably gone the long way around to say what I meant, but what it boils down to is for the most part the Buff doesn't get constant crowds. Do a count on Memorial Day week end and you'll say it needs controlling, but come out a couple of days later you feel as if you're out there all alone.

Someone commented that trying to get 100 feet from the river to answer nature's call is nearly an impossibility....you sure got that right!! I am not beating my way through the jungle for a pit stop....tho' I do try to get as far as is reasonably safe far as snakes, "chicks and tiggers"! are concerned.

HELP!!!!!! I want the best of both worlds! A clean river AND easy access.

[Butch Crain]

Don't know what to say except that if it was easy everybody would be doing it - that the problem now, isn't it?

And again, the underlying effects are cumulative - that's why an annual carrying capacity is an important number to know, not just the concentrations on any given day or week.

PS - don't see any reason that ACC couldn't submit applications - imagine the bids at Rendezvous silent auction.

PS/PS - and imagine that one season all the lottery winners use their permits at the beginning of the 6 month window. Wouldn't it be cool to know that the Buffalo and all that goes with it was out there for months undisturbed? And wouldn't it be cool to be one of the first to get back on it in the next 6 month window? Protection of the environment is a subject oft discussed on this board, thankfully so. The National Park system was formed to protect & preserve special places like the Buffalo. If we mean what we say about protecting the outdoors, we ought to pony up, not with money, but with action that may be a little hard to swallow, but has great dividends.

[GutIt]

Anytime I have ever applied for a permit, they were not “weighted” except for commercial outfitters. And they are not part of the lottery. They are issued so many each anyway in accordance with max usage volume for that particular run. Which also takes into account private groups as well. While the Buffalo is in AR, AR does not technically own it. Everybody in this country owns it no matter your location. It is national so everyone would get the same shot at a permit, just like most everywhere else I have seen. It’s the luck of the draw, not your geographical location. If you want a permit, you get your group together and everyone in the group applies for a permit. That is the only way to “weight” your chances. But that is really academic.

I would have to go with prophet, Mtngal & Richard here. It would be virtually impossible to support/enforce a permit system on the Buffalo for the reasons mentioned anyway. I don’t really see that happening. Permit runs typically have few accesses and places to even camp, unlike the Buffalo. Plus a lot of permitted runs even have time restrictions. You can’t just paddle down and homestead a campsite for days due to the limited number of them and with other people putting in every day. This is one of the main reasons for a permit system. As regarding the Buffalo, you can’t really issue permits for a certain section of river at a certain time months, or even weeks, or even days in advance and then it not be there due to lack of precip. About the only way to do it would be to issue on a first come, first serve, on site issuance the day you want to put in at the access you want or have to put in at. I suppose if the river is cranking, issue at every access all the way down. And hope the line isn't too long ahead of you. Then there are the outfitters to consider. Jeez! It gives me a headache just contemplating it! To permit the Buffalo would be an administrative/logistal nightmare and I seriously doubt the NPS would even want to try to deal with that. There is just really no way.

What is more to the point (even though permitting the Buffalo is an interesting concept) is that a permit system may or may not be on the distant horizon, but it is not here yet. And if/when it is it will surely include groover requirements. One good way to get ahead of this (as Mr. Crain suggested) is to address the issues that are here and now. With some semblance of responsible usage now, just maybe a permit system may not be necessary and can be avoided in the future.

I mentioned in another post that the people I boat with the most all use a groover of some kind and prefer it. One reason they do is because if you use one you don’t HAVE to beat the bushes and the sticks and tics, snakes and chiggers, and what all. No stumbling around in the dark with a flashlight attracting every insect in three counties trying to get the proper distance away and digging a hole. You set it up in a privacy tent on the gravel bar and no worries! It is really considered bad form to ask for the Group groover while on the water during the day (though it happens), so if you carry wag bags you are covered. Still don’t have to beat the bushes, just get out of sight and do yo’ thang! No hole, no muss, no fuss, and you are environmentally friendly.

It’s really a win/win all around!

[Jim Krueger]

Perhaps the Park Service or volunteers who spend time otherwise on trail maintenance might consider developing some spur trails up away from the river a couple hundred yards from many of the well loved/used camping bars. I know the majority of folks always follow the path of least resistance as evidenced by the comments thus far but if the path were easier maybe it could make quite a difference. A little work with a weedeater a couple times during the first year or so and the trails would be fairly well established, and, lead well away from the river. Since most of these gravel bars are bordering old fields and pastures, the spur trails could terminate at volunteer-dug 'slit-trench' latrines of sort to make it as 'convenient' as possible not to foul the river bank. Ken Smith, in his book; Buffalo River Country, also listed in the section on floating/camping equipment, the need to include an entrenching tool. I know we can't legislate ethics and morals but a little thoughtfulness and simple tools could go a long way in mitigating the effects of heavy use, perhaps forestalling some of the other measures mentioned. The Buffalo is really a stream I love to float and I just hate it is becoming another example of 'laying pearls before swine'.


Best Regards
Jim

[mcmurma]

Uh, what Jim said.

Having seen liberal examples of the blossoms in question I completely agree that having a limited number of "rest areas" available along the most popular runs (these could even be operated only seasonally?) in conjuction with those that already exist, could have a positive impact on the problem. But only if folks are educated in both the location of these special areas AND the need to utilize them if needed! (Gals would dig this, I think, and even coerce their men into making good use of such facilities if available.)

There are already lots of access points along the river that have some sort of facility, and if a few of the more popular swimming\camping spots along the river could be so equipped then perhaps this kind of approach could make a difference. In fact, this is the best I think you can hope for with the day trippers and overnight users camping in established sites.

Now, that said, I am also in support of rules requiring that you provide your own waste management system if you will be engaging in multi-day extended camping trips. It just makes sense. In fact, for multi-day trips I would not mind being required to plot a "flight plan" with the parks service that outlines the basics of ones stay. Nothing overly regimented. Just a few key things like put in, take out, and roughly how long. But I don't feel permits are necessary at this time. Also, such rules would only mean anything if folks knew that the likelihood of being "checked on" was high, and that fines would be levied for non compliance.

No solution is ever gonna be perfect, but I do strongly feel that more can be done through A) providing more opportunities to not make a mess and B) making sure everyone that uses the river is educated in this sensitive subject. It has been in the shadows too long.

Just my two cents.

Cheers,

Michael

[Richard]

I think the major thing we are in agreement on is the blossom problem. The current recommendation is to bury it in cat holes in sandy or loamy soils. Most gravel bars have sandy areas and that is usually where I see the blossoms.
Needless to say we need to look at page 10 in the "Currents" booklet and see if there is anything that can be done to improve the language or change the cat hole policy.
http://www.nps.gov/buff/planyourvisit/u ... 09_web.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One suggestion might be to add one more item to the state law list of do's and don'ts. (glass, food etc) and that would be that each canoe or group would have to show on demand a containable bathroom system. It could be something as simple as a wagbag. Thats what they do at Mt Whitney.

Also eliminate the cat hole method all together.

[DeBo]

Cowper and I will be going to the meeting in Marshall this evening. We will be leaving Conway around 4:00pm. If anyone wants to go post here.

[RespiratoryMan]

Hmm!