Leave No Trace (LNT)

[Richard]

So what do kayakers do when required to carry a "Groover" ?

1) Make friends with a canoeist or rafter.
2) Use the wag bag as backpackers to Mt Whitney are required to do.
3) Hold it.
4) Use facilities just before launching and day trip only.
5) Buffalo still allows cat holes but we are trying to discourage this practice.

[SteveGabbard]

Richard,

You have got to be kidding with most of your suggestions.

Thanks
Steve

[sugarmtngal]

Richard is serious!

[Jim Krueger]

Steve,

I've never had the pleasure of going out to the Western U.S., sightseeing, or even floating streams out there but have so enjoyed, vicariously, hearing of trips to the Colorado, Snake, Salmon, and other rivers for a long time. Aside from the waste policies, or any restrictions we don't have here, I was just 'agast' to learn some years ago that one had to have a permit to even float our nationally beloved streams. Over time though I have come to understand more that it's just the way it is to preserve some sense of quality for those who's turn it is on the stream at some given time.... I really lament now reading all of my 1940s and1950s National Geographic articles as a kid about the West, and the way it was before so many people...
I don't want to get into the 'groover' discussion too deeply, but being from Arkansas or any other Southeastern state, I know our different environment , and lesser population makes this concept seem un-needed and certainly counter to how I was raised as a farm boy, Boy Scout, and Infantry soldier in the S.E., it just seems ridiculous. I may never change my opinions on this matter, however I very much must concede what a terrible state of affairs we have here with litter and trash such as 'baby diapers', etc., and people who, given the choice, won't in fact 'go far afield' to do their business. If I were an even more worthless person ,I too might look no further than the end of the gravel bar but at least modesty and some sense of the next person has always ruled for me and I must go afield, and will continue to prefer that, at least here.
Flame on all who so desire.

Best Regards
Jim

[Richard]

Faron D. Usrey, Aquatic Ecologist for the Buffalo National River told me that one of the big problems they are experiencing is people peeing on the gravel bar in the summer when the water is low. Urine contains large amounts of urea and salt that remains on the gravel. When the rains of fall come it all goes into the river basically at the same time causing damage to aquatic life. If it was just one person doing it, no big deal but when you multiply that by all the users of the Buffalo it adds up to intolerable levels.

We need to be better stewards of the planet. . . both at home and in the wilderness. There are just too many of us to continue doing things the way we use to.

[okieboater]

Well Jim,

Not only are permits required for most Western Rivers, but you pay a non refundable fee to participate in the drawing, then if successful you pay another fee for your group to actually float the river. On the more popular rivers, your chances of winning are pretty low.

results are that most of the campsites are used almost daily on many western rivers.

If human waste (both trash and poo) were not carried out, campers would be wading in trash and shi* in a very short span of time. It is so dry (low humidty) on many of these rivers that the toilet paper and the excrement just stay around for decades. On a powerboat trip on Lake Powell some years ago looking for a overnight camp spot we went way back into what we thought was a isolated inlet just after sundown. I saw a nice looking sandy ledge close to where we tied up and went there to throw my pad down for the night. I noticed a lot of crunching sounds as I walked over the "sand". Woke up the next morning to find the sand was actually scraps of toilet paper and the crunching sounds were dried out poo. Sure glad the stuff had lost all it's moisture.

I grew up on a farm in rural North Georgia. Not a lot of people in the area at that time. A person could take a leak almost anywhere in the woods and when out hunting it was common to dig a little "cat hole" in the moist earth and bury your business with earth cover. Plenty of space and conditions were there to convert the poo back into the earth.

Not so now on our national treasures. Just about all of them are being used to the max and above. If the rules concerning carry out of all trash and excrement were not in place and for the most part followed by people - the trips we all treasure and the enjoyment of "wilderness" we enjoy would be marred by piles of trash and worse - excrement.

There is just too many of us humans using certain campsites and routes to not have these carry out rules.

I am not flaming anybody just recounting the facts and my personal thoughts. We should set the example of using groovers on the Buffalo and in my opinion the Rangers should inspect and require floaters to use groovers and trash bags. Otherwise, we will be floating on and swimming in filthy and disease carrying water.

Dave

[GutIt]

Good point Richard,

Out west they want you always take a leak in the river. It is such a huge ppm ratio that this is the best way to deal with it. As okieboater mentioned, the climate is so arid out there that after a very short period of time, if people didn’t do this, the limited and highly used campsites would become like catboxes and smell just as bad. Most of the sites I have ever stayed on are not even gravel. They are either sand or a sandy nature. And that is still with everyone carrying out their excrement. Just the thought of pulling into a campsite and having that knock you over is horrifying.

I wonder how that method would play on the Buffalo and our other streams.

We have other rivers that are in worse shape than the Buffalo as far as usage/water volume go. Some of these rivers just don’t flood as often as the Buffalo does and are also of smaller volume, though they run year round. Because of that they are subject to a higher amount of usage with a lower possibility of any type of natural cleansing.

Also as regards the permits, I have generally been checked at the put-in for the required gear, including groovers. If you don't have everything, you don't put in. Period. All that money and all that waiting for a permit is out the window.

[Clif]

Am I correct that most of the out west rivers allow camping on designated sites only? Not like pick a spot any spot like the Buffy. To me this point is important and not clearly stated.... if it is true.

Go hang at shine eye. In some areas many do not even bother with the holes. May be better now there is an outhouse there.

[okieboater]

Camping depends on the rules for each river. Some rivers have every camp site assigned example is Middle Fork of the Salmon, some only assign campsites in selected areas example is San Juan, others do not assign any camp sites example is Salt River and Deso Gray. There are other examples but the best way to be sure of the rules is to go to each river's web site and see what the rules are as they do change.

Some rivers do not care where you camp. Not many tho. But, most rivers have only a few spots where you can land boats, find space for a kitchen and space for individual tents. These spots often become the campsites people use even tho they are not assigned.

[Rick Tagi]

Rivers Are The Veins Of Life Of The Planet!

Human waste use it.... to create green fuel
Don't let go down the river.

I hate seeing the mess (S--t) that human leave on the Ozark Rivers.
The lest they could do is dig a cat-hole away from the river
but no just leave it on the gravel bar.
I have been a backpacker an canoed from the time I was 12 years old.
You just don't leave a trail in the backwoods... or Old Blackey or Grizz
will be at your tent for dinner.

"If we know the truth, we must tell it; if we don't, we must learn it!" It is critical to our spirit.
"It is not the function of our government to keep the Citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the Citizen to keep the government from falling into error."