Saftey and Rescue
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- Name: joe cutrer
Re: Saftey and Rescue
The point of being a paddler is to paddle. The social aspects of paddling such as promotion are not at all why I paddle.(Ill let the companys who make their $'s handle promotion of the sport.) Nor is being part of a COOL community. I paddle to enjoy the river/creek and nothing else. I dont know what happened exactly and dont really care, but the situation described didnt seem that terribly urgent to me.(We are talkin about swimmin at dierks right!) I generally always help w/ rescues (actually I was slingin ropes at the chief on south cedar while you guys were at dierks), but certainly wouldnt want to be called out on a public forum for my decision to help or not. I seriously doubt this post was intended to get opinions on rescue, more like it was intended to slam someone for not doing what was asked. If you wanna promote paddling positively dont call folks out like this it looks bad for the "community" as a whole and is not positive in any way. To whomever got jumped for not loaning a rope, Im sure you felt like you had your reasons! However no rope is worth a life, so if it was a serious matter you can bet Id be comin off my rope in a heartbeat. Wait a minute, isnt everyone on the river supposed to have their own rope anyway? Just sayin....
Last edited by Boofaholic on Fri May 29, 2009 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- Lil' Buddy
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Re: Saftey and Rescue
What are some of the reasons why one would not loan a rope to someone in need?
Take it easy on the answers as I only ask b/c I am untrained at SWR....but actively trying to find a class .
Also, I carry a rope, but almost always tell people that I am untrained in using it. I just carry it in the event someone else needs it in a rescue situation.
Take it easy on the answers as I only ask b/c I am untrained at SWR....but actively trying to find a class .
Also, I carry a rope, but almost always tell people that I am untrained in using it. I just carry it in the event someone else needs it in a rescue situation.
Re: Saftey and Rescue
Well, one reason for not loaning a rope is if you're not sure the person using it is trained to use it correctly, and if you feel they would make a dangerous situation even worse. Too many ropes can tangle a swimmer and the whole scenario can go from bad to worse. It doesn't sound like this was the case here, but I wasn't there so I don't know. I usually have a rope with me, unless it's park and play and I know the boaters I'm with and not teaching beginners.
Like I said, I don't know the whole deal here, but I will usually give my rope to whomever needs it in times of crisis.
Joe
P.S. I have to disagree on the representation of paddling. I don't openly go around recruiting people to paddle or anything like the Army, but if someone asks me about it, as people tend to do out of natural curiosity, then I'm happy to talk to them about it...at least until their eyes glaze over and small puddles of boredom drool fall from their lips.
Like I said, I don't know the whole deal here, but I will usually give my rope to whomever needs it in times of crisis.
Joe
P.S. I have to disagree on the representation of paddling. I don't openly go around recruiting people to paddle or anything like the Army, but if someone asks me about it, as people tend to do out of natural curiosity, then I'm happy to talk to them about it...at least until their eyes glaze over and small puddles of boredom drool fall from their lips.
And all this life we've glorified
Robbin' from the blind
It's not easy, you see
Don't think i don't know sympathy
My victims in my shadow
Starin' back at me
Robbin' from the blind
It's not easy, you see
Don't think i don't know sympathy
My victims in my shadow
Starin' back at me
- Cowper
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Re: Saftey and Rescue
Joe and I must have been typing at the same time, so there is some redundancy in our answers. I'll have to learn to type faster.
OK, I've already gone on record as saying in this case, I think the rope should have been loaned. But yes, it is not always a "black and white" answer. Here are a couple of the things that might lead to a "no" answer from a “good” person:
1) Liability concerns. Folks have some protection from "good Samaritan” laws, but some folks worry about liability more than others. Some worry about it A LOT! I loan you my jack, you use it wrong, car falls on you – in some cases, I could be held liable. So am I a bad person if you need a jack, and I won’t loan you mine? Maybe not; maybe I just know somebody that got sued for something like that in the past. Those who have studied a lot of river rescue reports have seen at least some where a rope caused trouble or made things worse. In one dramatic case on the Chattooga River many years ago, a rope was thrown to someone who had gone down into a pothole at Bull Sluice – a place where the water goes into the rock, and comes out somewhere downstream. The rope wrapped around the persons neck; they essentially hanged and almost decapitated the victim, who did not survive. If no rope had been thrown, the person would have flushed through and come up downstream. I heard the story from an eye witness; he was scarred for life by the memory and I assure you he felt differently about ropes and would-be rescuers than most of us.
2) Money. If I think maybe you don’t really, really need the rope – say, maybe I think there is not a life on the line, only a stranger’s boat, or maybe even a rental boat, then I have to think twice. Gear doesn’t usually get “destroyed”, which would almost always lead to an offer of like-for-like replacement. What happens more often is, it gets slightly worn or damaged. Maybe one end gets partially cut where it was tied to a boat; so my 75’ rescue rope has to get cut and suddenly I have a 70’ rope. Or maybe someone else walks all over it while it is in the sand. That causes damage we can’t even see, but the rope is now weaker. I’m not going to let you buy me a new rope for that kind of normal wear and tear. So I’m the one that will take the “hit”. If I go places every weekend, if I’m first in line to use my rope or hand it to others for every rescue, then my gear ends up with a very short life span.
You said you don’t use the rope much because you are not “trained”. I would encourage you to get a good river rescue book, read up a bit, and start using that rope. Training is great; I’m all for training, but I am also in favor of “experience” and “self study” and a big believer that formal training is only part of what should be going on. Don’t hold yourself back between now and the time that you get that formal training. You don’t need to have the formal training to toss a rope to someone in trouble; you can practice the throws in your yard; you can look at the diagrams in any rescue book and learn how to pick “good” and “bad” places to throw the rope from. Then when you go for your formal training, you’ll get more out of it because you will already have the basics down, and you can concentrate on picking up some new or more advanced tricks, instead of everything being completely new to you.
OK, I've already gone on record as saying in this case, I think the rope should have been loaned. But yes, it is not always a "black and white" answer. Here are a couple of the things that might lead to a "no" answer from a “good” person:
1) Liability concerns. Folks have some protection from "good Samaritan” laws, but some folks worry about liability more than others. Some worry about it A LOT! I loan you my jack, you use it wrong, car falls on you – in some cases, I could be held liable. So am I a bad person if you need a jack, and I won’t loan you mine? Maybe not; maybe I just know somebody that got sued for something like that in the past. Those who have studied a lot of river rescue reports have seen at least some where a rope caused trouble or made things worse. In one dramatic case on the Chattooga River many years ago, a rope was thrown to someone who had gone down into a pothole at Bull Sluice – a place where the water goes into the rock, and comes out somewhere downstream. The rope wrapped around the persons neck; they essentially hanged and almost decapitated the victim, who did not survive. If no rope had been thrown, the person would have flushed through and come up downstream. I heard the story from an eye witness; he was scarred for life by the memory and I assure you he felt differently about ropes and would-be rescuers than most of us.
2) Money. If I think maybe you don’t really, really need the rope – say, maybe I think there is not a life on the line, only a stranger’s boat, or maybe even a rental boat, then I have to think twice. Gear doesn’t usually get “destroyed”, which would almost always lead to an offer of like-for-like replacement. What happens more often is, it gets slightly worn or damaged. Maybe one end gets partially cut where it was tied to a boat; so my 75’ rescue rope has to get cut and suddenly I have a 70’ rope. Or maybe someone else walks all over it while it is in the sand. That causes damage we can’t even see, but the rope is now weaker. I’m not going to let you buy me a new rope for that kind of normal wear and tear. So I’m the one that will take the “hit”. If I go places every weekend, if I’m first in line to use my rope or hand it to others for every rescue, then my gear ends up with a very short life span.
You said you don’t use the rope much because you are not “trained”. I would encourage you to get a good river rescue book, read up a bit, and start using that rope. Training is great; I’m all for training, but I am also in favor of “experience” and “self study” and a big believer that formal training is only part of what should be going on. Don’t hold yourself back between now and the time that you get that formal training. You don’t need to have the formal training to toss a rope to someone in trouble; you can practice the throws in your yard; you can look at the diagrams in any rescue book and learn how to pick “good” and “bad” places to throw the rope from. Then when you go for your formal training, you’ll get more out of it because you will already have the basics down, and you can concentrate on picking up some new or more advanced tricks, instead of everything being completely new to you.
Trash: Get a little every time you go!
- Cowper
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Re: Saftey and Rescue
Ding-ding-ding! That is exactly what happened. We had a bunch of highly experienced boaters, at a park-and-play, not teaching beginners. That's why they got caught "off guard".JTarver wrote: I usually have a rope with me, unless it's park and play and I know the boaters I'm with and not teaching beginners.
Trash: Get a little every time you go!
- paddlinggoddess
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Re: Saftey and Rescue
Thanks for your post Joe. I am sure that anyone else would see that I was trying to call attention to the safety issue, not try to call someone out. I did my best to be as P.C. as possible. Was just distressed that someone who knew our training would not lend us a rope when he had two within arms reach.
Sabrina
Sabrina
Re: Saftey and Rescue
Can't stand it any longer....
I did a lot of research regarding this post and found several flaws regarding this rescue. After reading several law suit's(still looking for a detailed copy of the Act) I found that I myself could have been held responsible legally :shock: . I was very :shock: stunned and tell all to do a little research regarding these law’s, because what we may think is fine morally :) could get you sued .
Having gone through training to help others in these types of situation’s, I personally found it wrong to refuse someone whom they knew to be trained the rope. Then to critic the rescue in front of the victim… well this person will tell you how I felt because I told them and no I did not yell profanities at them.
I also found that the Samaritan law is not the only law that applies , yes people have the right to be rescued and that comes under an entirely different set of laws. There are also divisions regarding if it happens on land or water, because it may be under Maritime Law( I know made my head hurt ).
So I am glad that this has brought out a bit of anger … it should because if this were to have been you or your child then the whole world changes( I only use the word “child” because the thought of innocence seems to be associated with it and certain parental instincts come to play). I have now been paddling whitewater for a little over a year now, and have used my rope and first aid kit for several stranger’s and yes several stranger’s have thrown me a line as well . I say this to point out you can’t always count on your crew to be the ones helping you out and you know you would want to beat the crap or sue the crap out of someone who refused you rescue.
Here is just a response to one case, but the response should tell you that when the law gets involved you could be screwed or not. I will try hard to find a more detailed form of the law for all and will post the findings at that time.
http://ag.arkansas.gov/opinions/docs/2007-303.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
May we all have safe travel’s
James
I did a lot of research regarding this post and found several flaws regarding this rescue. After reading several law suit's(still looking for a detailed copy of the Act) I found that I myself could have been held responsible legally :shock: . I was very :shock: stunned and tell all to do a little research regarding these law’s, because what we may think is fine morally :) could get you sued .
Having gone through training to help others in these types of situation’s, I personally found it wrong to refuse someone whom they knew to be trained the rope. Then to critic the rescue in front of the victim… well this person will tell you how I felt because I told them and no I did not yell profanities at them.
I also found that the Samaritan law is not the only law that applies , yes people have the right to be rescued and that comes under an entirely different set of laws. There are also divisions regarding if it happens on land or water, because it may be under Maritime Law( I know made my head hurt ).
So I am glad that this has brought out a bit of anger … it should because if this were to have been you or your child then the whole world changes( I only use the word “child” because the thought of innocence seems to be associated with it and certain parental instincts come to play). I have now been paddling whitewater for a little over a year now, and have used my rope and first aid kit for several stranger’s and yes several stranger’s have thrown me a line as well . I say this to point out you can’t always count on your crew to be the ones helping you out and you know you would want to beat the crap or sue the crap out of someone who refused you rescue.
Here is just a response to one case, but the response should tell you that when the law gets involved you could be screwed or not. I will try hard to find a more detailed form of the law for all and will post the findings at that time.
http://ag.arkansas.gov/opinions/docs/2007-303.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
May we all have safe travel’s
James
James
The best water isn't always drinkable...
The best water isn't always drinkable...
Re: Saftey and Rescue
Hey man. Take your rope into your backyard, park any open area. You can even leave it all in the bag. Toss it at a target. Get familiar with the weight. A target farther away. You can underhand or football throw. Do this several days and you are well on your way. At least better off than no idea what to do. After you can hit VERY close most of the time, start holding on to the rope and trying. NEVER tie the rope to yourself. Just hold the loop.Lil' Buddy wrote:Take it easy on the answers as I only ask b/c I am untrained at SWR....but actively trying to find a class .
Also, I carry a rope, but almost always tell people that I am untrained in using it. I just carry it in the event someone else needs it in a rescue situation.
You can find more in books. Even knowing and taking a class when you actually do , it is a whole new thing.
You sure this is on the right channel?
Re: Saftey and Rescue
Seems that this thread IS getting opinions on safety after all!
I’d like to offer a suggestion that goes another step further on the “beginnings of rope wrangling” advice. After you get your rescue book, take note of the belays that you will need to anchor yourself and the swimmer. Of course, you won’t need them if you can’t hit a swimmer to begin with, so definitely practice that. But once you start hitting your target, immediately go into a belay. Practice this in conjunction with your target practice so that it all becomes one procedure by habit and automatic. Hitting the swimmer is only half the equation. You now have to get them in.
Beginning ropers have a tendency to hit the swimmer and just stand there with a rope in their outstretched hand or their hand hanging at their side. When helping people learn the “ropes”, I constantly have to remind them to belay after the throw. This is very common to beginning. Until you have snagged a couple of live ones, you really don’t realize how much shock force and pull there is going to be when that rope fetches up. A loose rope increases the entanglement hazard dramatically if pulled out of your hand. If you get pulled in then you have a second vic plus an entanglement hazard that has increased dramatically.
I never take a swimmer in swift water or white water lightly. Any number of things can happen. Pins, rock impacts, foot entrapment, flush drowning, even a coronary event if the water is cold is possible just to name a few. And it doesn’t have to be huge water for this to happen. While I realize there may be different degrees of hazard involved at different locations, a swimmer should never be left to fend for him/herself in a whitewater scenario. Which is why I have no qualms leaving my place in line at a play spot to chase a swimmer. I wish more people could say the same. (hokay, I did say there are certain degrees of danger and if it flushes into a pool, say, maybe just keeping an eye on until the swimmer is on terra firma may be enough, but I see a lot of boaters returning their attention back to the hole and just blowing off the swimmer assuming they will be hokay).
This is why I ALWAYS have a rope with me no matter who I am with or what kind of boating I am doing. You just never know. This is a Universal Philosophy with me. Whether it is rescue gear, first aid, that extra piece of fleece on a cold day, raingear paddling flatwater, or just a few extra frosty cold ones in the cooler.
It is better to have it than to need it.
As far as liability is concerned, I really don’t think about it much. I doubt that if I lent a rope I would be held liable anyway. That seems kind of a stretch, but I suppose in today’s litigation happy world a possibility. It would seem that I would be more at risk if I were the one actually using the rope than lending it. I know it’s a bit different, but with CPR training this is addressed. Which by the way, as of last CPR class I took (less than a year ago), no one had been successfully sued to date for administering CPR. The deal is that you have to make matters worse by your actions than they would have been if you had not reacted. The reason no one has been successfully sued is because you can’t really be considered any worse off than dead! Not something I totally agree with but that is how the law sees it, I guess!
I guess I would rather see someone alive more than I am worried about lawsuits.
I’d like to offer a suggestion that goes another step further on the “beginnings of rope wrangling” advice. After you get your rescue book, take note of the belays that you will need to anchor yourself and the swimmer. Of course, you won’t need them if you can’t hit a swimmer to begin with, so definitely practice that. But once you start hitting your target, immediately go into a belay. Practice this in conjunction with your target practice so that it all becomes one procedure by habit and automatic. Hitting the swimmer is only half the equation. You now have to get them in.
Beginning ropers have a tendency to hit the swimmer and just stand there with a rope in their outstretched hand or their hand hanging at their side. When helping people learn the “ropes”, I constantly have to remind them to belay after the throw. This is very common to beginning. Until you have snagged a couple of live ones, you really don’t realize how much shock force and pull there is going to be when that rope fetches up. A loose rope increases the entanglement hazard dramatically if pulled out of your hand. If you get pulled in then you have a second vic plus an entanglement hazard that has increased dramatically.
I never take a swimmer in swift water or white water lightly. Any number of things can happen. Pins, rock impacts, foot entrapment, flush drowning, even a coronary event if the water is cold is possible just to name a few. And it doesn’t have to be huge water for this to happen. While I realize there may be different degrees of hazard involved at different locations, a swimmer should never be left to fend for him/herself in a whitewater scenario. Which is why I have no qualms leaving my place in line at a play spot to chase a swimmer. I wish more people could say the same. (hokay, I did say there are certain degrees of danger and if it flushes into a pool, say, maybe just keeping an eye on until the swimmer is on terra firma may be enough, but I see a lot of boaters returning their attention back to the hole and just blowing off the swimmer assuming they will be hokay).
This is why I ALWAYS have a rope with me no matter who I am with or what kind of boating I am doing. You just never know. This is a Universal Philosophy with me. Whether it is rescue gear, first aid, that extra piece of fleece on a cold day, raingear paddling flatwater, or just a few extra frosty cold ones in the cooler.
It is better to have it than to need it.
As far as liability is concerned, I really don’t think about it much. I doubt that if I lent a rope I would be held liable anyway. That seems kind of a stretch, but I suppose in today’s litigation happy world a possibility. It would seem that I would be more at risk if I were the one actually using the rope than lending it. I know it’s a bit different, but with CPR training this is addressed. Which by the way, as of last CPR class I took (less than a year ago), no one had been successfully sued to date for administering CPR. The deal is that you have to make matters worse by your actions than they would have been if you had not reacted. The reason no one has been successfully sued is because you can’t really be considered any worse off than dead! Not something I totally agree with but that is how the law sees it, I guess!
I guess I would rather see someone alive more than I am worried about lawsuits.
Keep Your Stick in the Water!
-Terry-
-Terry-
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