Advice for a canoe

[gnick4]

I have an Old Town Penobscot 164 and I am thinking of trading it for a Buffalo canoe. I love the stability and the amount of weight the Penobscot can hold but it is harder to turn. The buffalo has more rocker and sounds like it would be easier to maneuver on the river. I am torn because of the weight limit is 700lbs with the Buffalo and 1100lbs with the Penobscot.

Any opinions?

[GutIt]

Hey gnick! Welcome!

Great questions and I can kind of see your dilemma. Maybe if you might like to provide a little more insight as to what Buffalo you are considering replacing your Old Town with? Why you want that extra load capability (do you do a lot of tandem with an expedition load?), or are you mostly using your ride as a solo rig? Will you max your chosen boat’s load specs? You know! Stuff like that!

Most any good canoe hull design these days will become more stable as it is loaded deeper. As you mentioned the trade-off is maneuverability and it is indeed hard to get the best of both. Generally, the more of one, the less of the other. In fact, it may not be possible for you to get everything you would like, depending on your load/handling standards. Rocker can become a diminishing point of return as it is loaded deep. You have your hull “keeled” at it’s deepest point. Not to mention that is your “drag” point if you are in a shallow riffle. “High Center” your boat and you no longer have control of your direction.

So here is what I find works for me, since you asked for opinions. I like a longer canoe. I paddle a 17’er as my Mother Ship. I find it handles my load requirements, my personnel requirements (tandem), and will handle well for me since the load is distributed over a longer length, reducing the “keel’ effect. I find that these boats ride at a shallower draft with the same load. No, it won’t handle like a short boat loaded light. Yes, it will handle better for me loaded heavy than a shorter boat tandem and I make sure my Chuckwagon is a good one. It is fast, even loaded, will track, and get a good one and it will turn nicely even with a load. Well, at least not such a huge burden to get it to change direction, which is what maneuverability is all about. But that’s not all. Once you get your direction changed, you may need the speed to complete your line. I find that these longer boats handle quite well for what I am asking of it.

What I have found about your question is how much better one foot makes in gear management. It is not that one foot makes so much difference by itself in how much you can load due to an added one foot. It is how much better your boat will configure what you want to put in it. Or how much better the same amount of stuff will fit in it. It is a way better thwart configuration, maybe a slightly better beam, and more room in the ends. You load your boat in the middle and put the overflow wherever you can jam it. You can get the bigger coolers, dryboxes, etc. in a 17’er because the thwarts are better situated for them. In a 16’er, you just fit it in as well as you can jam it and hope your 48 qt cooler fits between the thwarts. Some of them won’t.

I have loaded my Chuckwagons to the gills, gnick. Two people and everything we could bring to help us have what we think we need. Surprisingly little freeboard (And that ain't just another LYNYRD SKYNYRD tune!) And on multi-day expedition runs. Lacking for nothing as far as creature comforts. Which I am thinking is what kind of opinions you are asking for. Dry ride, frosty cold one's on hand, and your fave partner with you! They handle just as well, if not better, than a shorter boat loaded with your same stuff and your bow mate will be happy!

Glad you are here, gnick! Let us know what you find works for you!

[Richard]

You can't go wrong by following GutIt's advice.

I have for solo camping:
Wenonah Argosy (14'6"). Its good for a couple of nights, no ice chest.
Wennonah Prospector (16'). It is very similar to the Buffalo.
For tandem camping:
Wennonah Prospector (16').
Old Town Discovery 169. I removed the center thwart and it can hold a bunch. Nick named "The Barge"

My suggestion is to keep the Old Town and buy a second canoe that will more perfectly meet your solo needs.

Best thing I ever did was buy my first canoe. Second best was buying the second canoe.

[gnick4]

Great advice and thanks for the welcome! I just got into canoeing last summer. I thought it would be something that I could do with my 14yr old son that would be a good bonding experience. I have to say it has been one of the best things that we have done. We absolutely love it and can't wait until the next time we go out.

I bought the penobscot from a store that took the info I gave them and suggested that canoe. I have to say they were accurate for what I wanted and needed as a newbie. I have since gotten a friend hooked and he is looking to buy a canoe. He really wants to buy mine since he is unable to find one like it for what i paid for it! He wants the stability and something that tracks great. So my dilemma is do I "swap" canoes with him or stay with what I have.

You are correct in the weight to handling. Mine handles better loaded. For me that means myself, son, 60lb boxer, and gear for a two day trip. I would like to take a longer trip at some point but so far that has just been 3 overnighters. I can pack light and am not sure that I would max out a Buffalo canoe at 700lbs. I think that the ability to turn would outweigh the need for a massive load. I can always borrow my current canoe for long trips if needed.

I wish I could afford another canoe but I have one starting college this year and don't think that is prudent at this time.

I guess I am wondering if Buffalo canoes are a good fit for rivers class 1-3? They have more rocker and less keel than what I have and seem to be built well. I love the canoe that I have, just wished it turned a little better and it is great as a solo with a little weight in the front.

Overall, I have gotten hooked and want to "play" a little more than the canoe I have will allow. I know that sounds somewhat silly to my wife and it is hard to explain but................ That is what it is.
You guys have a great site and I am glad to be a part of it.
Again, Thanks,
Gary

[Clif]

Feel free to contact me for advanced tips on packing to balance. SEE THIS Notice the rocks and specialized bowman position.

Lots of us have "recycled" rental boats aka buffy barge... buffalo canoes. Watch the outfitters or talk to them now as they are gearing up for the rapidly approaching season. Few dings and dents but plenty of life left. Gave 200 for mine and put about 100 on reinforcing the ends where it was worn thin from gravel bar landings. My friend gave 250 for one at silver hill in great shape with pads on it already. Perfect for the occasional trip with or without loads.

And these things will do eddy turns, peelouts and surf when not loaded much. Hafta work for it, but tandem is a blast

[gnick4]

That is a technique I have not tried yet!

Thanks for the advice, I will call around and see what they have.

[Btaylor]

Hi,
I am a new member to this site, however I've been river running tandem and solo canoes for 44 years now. My tandem ,a Mohawk Nova 16 in the lt , Royalite lay up I've successfully done dble duty with. To explain, I have 6 children and 5 are now accommplished paddlers themselves with much to give credit to Mohawk canoes. The 16 ft, has a 34" beam, easir for growing teens to paddle, I find it stable and while not a fast boat, it has sufficient rocker for class 1 and with intermediate > skill, class II. It ways 57#'s, so I portage this boat occaisionally in Algonquin Ontario CN lake to river circuit trips. And yet this is my river tripping, spring water boat which as well. I live so. of Bflo, NY. The rivers I frequent are normally only up in late Mar-2nd week in May then I watch the water guages on mt computer feverishly and "hit the rivers 'when I know I have adequate flow. I river camp but we travel light, never take cooler, or big stoves, that kind of thing, i'd say my avg gear load for tandem for 2-3 overnights is 70-80#'s max.I find the 16 is as stable w/or wo load. I prefer to kneel most of the time. After all that is really how their designed to be paddled. My Mohawk solo 14 is now my go go river boat, lt lay up, weighs 38#s, and I trim it out and away I go. This boat is set up with 2 kneeling thwarts, that's the boat all of my children learned to paddle on as only 30.5" at beam. I use a 60" paddle w a T grip, still have my orig. Clemens in fine shape as my dad fiberglassed the lower edge, to stave off wear fr rocks. I am 5'10, 225 #'s .I have knee pads all the way around and middle seat for me, I recently tweaked the agle, and raised it slightly, as I kneel 90% of the time. I'd kneel all the time but at 59 yrs, I cut myself some slack. Believe it or not as canoeing has always been my #1 outdoor enjoyment, I am looking to purchase an OC-1. I've recently had some training with an outfitter for a week on the Madawaska River, in ON, CN, and I am seeking a boat for class II-III , I'm not going to be the one who can roll, or seek out class IV and up, but the class II and III water to run smartly, and safely really gives me a rush, and its different from my norm, so I'm looking to add to my fleet of 3, as my third boat is a 12' Walden scout kayak, we bought used. It allows room for 1 more paddler to join us on our current river trips, and still carry their own gear. I'm looking at the Esquif Raven or Mohawk probe 13. I know it sounds crazy but for the water I run, my plan is to run 48"bags and have just enough room for the smaller size river plastic barrels for gear, so when I do camp, I can camp lite.All I can add about the Nova 16 and Solo 14, is if you have more rocks, lower water levels, I'd suggest the full royalex lay up, as the lite lay up does oil can a bit, I've had both 15 years and I see 10 more years use out of these 2 before any repair is anticipated. Happy paddling my friend, which ever boat #2, you choose....Bryan

[Al Donaldson]

You might consider a Two Brothers Arkota, also.
http://www.twobrotherscanoe.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Regarding the load limits as published (especially by the major manufacturers,) they are usually not worth the paper that they are printed upon.

Good luck and good paddling.

al

[ckuntz]

Have you looked at the Appalachian? Very nice Old Town canoe with good performance(glide and handling). However, it is very full in the ends with lots of volume and 3 inches of rocker on each end..
It will paddle better and handle heavier whitewater than the Buffalo canoe(IMO) and it turns much easier. Not a cheap pricetag, but if you could afford it, it would have the best of both(Penobscot and Buffalo) canoes.
Chris

[gnick4]

Have you looked at the Appalachian? Very nice Old Town canoe with good performance(glide and handling). However, it is very full in the ends with lots of volume and 3 inches of rocker on each end..
It will paddle better and handle heavier whitewater than the Buffalo canoe(IMO) and it turns much easier. Not a cheap pricetag, but if you could afford it, it would have the best of both(Penobscot and Buffalo) canoes.
Chris

Thanks for the advice, I bought an Arkota from TBC last year. Had the canoe out about 30 times last year and absolutely love it.