City funding for a water park

[Half Ton]

Not trying to monger fear, but wanted to point out that scull creek is impaired from pet waste. A concreted headwaters with storm drain drainage carries dem turds straight to the river without a chance to be filtered by vegetation.

Also wanted to refer to loving a resource to death. with the trail right by the creek, creek changes have occurred as related to vegetation clearing, and impervious surfaces that have been placed right next to the creek. Not to mention all of the dog poo which now lines the trail and 2 ft between it in the creek.

You are 100 % right that the high cfs, and brown water events carry much more of a lot of bad stuff, but smaller rains do the same due to highly impervious headwater drainage.

Man - I wish i could be ok with the all summer long swimmin hole, but too many times a family or other user will leave dirty diapers, broken glass, food scraps.......and then come back next week to the hole that they trashed.

I realize that what far past gone, and you are is saying is another end of the spectrum in regards to easy access for user groups leading to more people taking care of a resource. But too often I see the other thing happen. I know there has to be a happy medium, not sure exactly where that is though.

It is a certainty that the spots on Mud and Scull Creek that are currently the best play spots are from concrete covered sewage or water utility lines. I hate to see those as well, but people need water to come to their house and need sewage to leave and the city has use cost effective methods (i,e, gravity) to help that $hit flow.

It would be nice if they could use some Rosgen or Newberry methodology to make their concrete structures better play features that jived with habitat and recreation.

To detain, retain, or alter without consideration of other impacts is my main point. I see all sorts of folks altering streams for the worse, and just wish that the boaters would not join in on that business.

Thanks for checkin' the lameness I am spoutin'. dialogue is good.

[Fish]

Life has not been choked out of the streams in fayetteville - yet.

There are still stonefly, mayfly, caddis fly, and dragon fly larvae kicking in in many of the streams......all of these are indicators of decent water quality.

...

I still do not understand how so many people can float a river, walk a trail, swim in a river, and etc....... and hardly ever take care of it.

...

No offense, but doesn't matter who you are, I love wild rivers at least as much as you. I've been heavily involved or taken the lead in four serious efforts to preserve streams and environments, one in the middle of Fayetteville. I've rallied people and put in my time as a bunch of river cleanups. I've written editorials, spoken at public meetings, organized and led hikes, built web sites, etc., etc.

I too still do not understand how so many people can float a river and not take care of it. But they do.

My experiences have led me to believe that streams in urban areas are important in getting people to care. Maintaining easy access for urban dwellers to those streams causes all the problems that Half Ton mentions, but that access is equally important. Yeah, I look at it and see the bank erosion, etc. and it sucks. But folks who don't get out in the woods much (don't forget, outdoors people are the minority), they don't see it that way. Most of them see it as very pretty, and the city parks and trails are pretty compared to the real concrete ditches.

We're not going to get rid of cities or city dwellers anytime soon. Streams in urban areas are going to be heavily impacted. Period. Fighting that battle is tilting at windmills. Just fight to make sure people can come to appreciate the beauty of streams, and maybe they'll support efforts to preserve actual wild ones. They won't always, but it's about the only shot we have.

As for me, I'll continue to love urban streams too (in KC, they're about all I have these days), but I'll continue to focus my efforts on keeping the really wild places as wild as they can be.

- Fish

[Half Ton]

never meant to imply more love for water or rivers than you, fish, or anyone else for that matter. If thats the way it came out - shame on me. For the record I very much appreciate the previous efforts that you have undertaken.

Just meant to imply - do not modify a stream if it is not already a feature that is modified or flow regime altered from someother dam project or what not. Spillways or other forms of concreted features associated with dams or utilities are a different game for a whitewater park unless it means modifying the flow regime of a stream completely......which happens for chitty wastewater reasons all the time as it is.

Kansas city does have some fine concrete lined ditches.

[Fish]

never meant to imply more love for water or rivers than you, fish, or anyone else for that matter. If thats the way it came out - shame on me. For the record I very much appreciate the previous efforts that you have undertaken.

Nah, I was just taking an opportunity to brag. You've done more than a half-ton yourself in terms of helping streams. Much respect back at ya.

Kansas city does have some fine concrete lined ditches.

Some? We are the hands down urban surfin capital of the world. If you want to come up and dodge some rebar and floating paint cans with us sometime, I can hook you up.

- Fish

[A Savage spanke]

all terroristic threatening aside, while Gentry seems to be the best option, if there is a closer option I'm all for it. That seems like a long way to drive when the bars close down. Not as far as dierks (the next best option), but who is dumb enough to drive that far in that situation?

[justin.payne]

Gentry is only about 35 minutes from fayetteville.

[hfunkhouser]

Let me begin by stating that I am probably in the wrong thread, I just want a place to mess around. I wasn't looking for a full blown park. I think the Gentry thread has the most realistic vision for that.

I paddled the West Fork from Tilly Willy Bridge (near Lake Wilson) to Stonebridge Meadows yesterday. There didn't seem to be a lot of opportunities for urban pollutants above the dam, however the assortment of diapers, used condoms, broken glass and other random trash (especially near Tilly Willy) certainly gave it an ICK! factor. I stayed very dry in my Buffalo.

Modifying the spillway of the dam would be cheap and have minimal impact on the already completely man-made structure of that part of the creek. A simple ramp made of smooth block to harness the energy of the drop at the spillway into the already well placed boulder would be all needed for beginners (like me) to play around and get some practice, even during low water. Also seems like it would stick around after a flood. I'm gonna stick by this un-invasive, cheap, and fast fix for those of us that can't throw loops anyway. I bet the city would do it if someone agreed to volunteer to clean that run up....especially considering that it is also our primary water source.

Also, I noticed a couple of old dams along the way that still have footings under them. They might make a wave at the right flow.

Where are the ones on Mud and Scull? What should the WFWR be running at to use 'em? Is the potential for dirty water even greater there?

[Half Ton]

The biggest pollutant listed for West Fork is Sediment which is also the # 1 pollutant in the US. From about brentwood down the serious bank erosion starts and continues on one side of the creek or the other for the whole stretch to dead horse mtn rd bridge. I have never been from deadhorse mtn bridge to the lake but All 27 miles of west fork from just below the lake to upstream are listed on 303 d list.

The other largest pollutant is.....you named it.... trash, nasty trash, and so much trash that its probably not safe to swim in without getting cut by glass or metal unless you are at riverside park. A lot of the trash is illegally dumped or comes from the legacy trash that can be evidenced as buried in the bank from as long ago as people have lived there. Many people burn their trash right next to the creek, where it washes in or gets picked up by flood water. It is epic and sad for the most part.

West Fork Watershed alliance does a good job of leading a clean up their every year. this year it is on june 5.

Our drinking water gets cleaned via treatment and thats good at least.

The low head dam you are speaking of probably could be modified without causing any more accelerated bank erosion than there already is, without any habitat loss, or other negative effects of modification but would not be super easy for super ez play.

their are 2 low head dams on clear creek both of which have 0.0 parking and bacteria related impairments.

Mud creek has at least one dam in paradise golf course.
Mud has 1 city utility play wave at panera termed the "panera wave" by jermdog et. al.

Niokaska creek a trib of md creek has a good example of stream modification gone wrong. City folk put wing dams in to "slow the flow" years ago at sweet briar park and the river just did what rivers do when there flow is altered without regard to the pattern or profile or type or creek it is......0.25 acre gone and counting at a cost of wing dam, staff time, equipment cost, and missing land that keeps on moving downstream with each flood. The land loss alone is $ 25,000 because city land be pricy up here, you know!

To restore this bank would cost $ 250,000 or so just like at gully park.

Niokaska has a nice playspot at old wire and lod missouri just downstream from the fire dept, but there is no parking.

Scull has the city utility play wave just before the interstate culvert and just upstream is another by appleby apartments called "pud falls" which is really just a concreted utility ledge but was named by brad campell after his former dog pud.

spanke - you be funny man.

[Half Ton]

Jermdog, Loren, Howard, Ryan,Matt, Fish and etc. - you guys be funny too. sorry for crashing the fun whitewater park dialogue idea in fayetteville and turning it into a not funny debate over stream modification.

I did not intend to start a debate war, but did want to make some key points about stream modification as they relate to the streams in Fayetteville.

I work with a lot of the streamside landowners, city, and business folk who all have bad luck and have all brought about unintended consequences from their actions. This outburst of mine is directly related to seeing enough bad $hit that my eyeballs do hurt from it, pockets do pay unneccesary taxes for, and heart goes out to those who are in a bad place from bad streamside situations.

Just wanted to be sure to make this point also. you guys be funny.. I be lame

[hfunkhouser]

No prob, Half-Ton. Your expertise is appreciated. I took a look at the waves you mentioned, and with the exception of "Panera Wave" they are poorly placed for my skill level. If I understood correctly, the ones on Scull Creek are placed in such a way that if you flip and miss your roll you are going to have to swim a couple hundred yards in the dark before you can even attempt self rescue. Not my idea of practice. Even Panera wave was not ideal for beginners, in that you have such an audience from College Ave Of course it did look the best. I still want to speak with some engineering folks about the possibilities and costs of modifying the spillway.

[davidm]

This urban kayaking talk... What is the best one to check out after work, and best places to shuttle or park. I live right by gulley park and have wondered if there was anything substantial below gulley park. As far as mud creek is the parking area by the retirement facility a good place to put in/take out? Also are these something I would have to paddle in the rain, or will they hold for more than an hour after the rain?