hero VS rocker for creek boat

[ebell]

i am in the market for a creekboat and have been reading and looking around. I would like some input on the hero (river runner) vs. the Rocker (creek boat). I know that some people use the hero as a creeker.

Also, looking for opinions on the newer style boats like the bliss stick SCUD and pyranha ammo that are shorter than than some of the older creekers.

All that being said price will be an important deciding factor for me. whatever boat i may get will definately have to be used, hopefully lightly.

thanks
eric

[bryanpin]

the ammo and scud are examples of specialty type boats. they have some extra volume to make them better creekers than playboats. they are also really short, so on tight eddys and tight lines they can be good. but were they obviously differ from a true creeker is lenght which = speed. an 8ft. long boat is much faster than a sub 7 ft boat and carries better momentum through holes and off drops.

i would say you need to evaluate exactly what type of paddling you are doing or want to eventually do. if you never aspire to push yourself and will stay away from IV+ through V stuff, then you can really go with anything that fits your size and style. but if you want to creek, get a creeker.

[okieboater]

I own a Mega Rocker purchased first
I own a Super Hero purchased maybe a year after I got the Mega Rocker

The Mega Rocker is the best creek boat I have ever had when it comes to the boat taking care of me when I screw up. I have had a lot of the classic creek boats and enjoyed them but JK got the rocker just right for creeking in my view for my skill level and appitite for taking chances. It is a very forgiving ride.

It has a big bow that seems to ride up and over everthing that gets in its way.

It is superb on low water rocky runs like Browns Canyon on labor day when it is only 2 or 3 hundred CFS.

I have had it back east on even more rocky runs and it just slides over stuff that other boats would catch an edge and flip.

It rolls easy.

Boofs are automatic and if I screw up the boof, the boat automatically recovers and heads for the surface. It seems to bounce off rocks that would be a pin in many boats. I have been in situations where I screwed up and got backwards, just lay down on the front deck and throw out a brace and the rocker seems to find its way just fine.

Room for every thing in the stern.

I have had it on bigger water runs like new river gorge and it handles the big stuff just as well. On the big holes I point directly down stream and paddle hard. I have not had this boat sideways in the perfect hole, but it might be harder to get out of with not much edges. On the other hand the boat handles so well, I have not yet got sideways except on purpose in play holes.

For me, It is hard for me to surf this boat as it is designed to plow through the gnar. On some waves I have gotten a few surfs but I must be right on top of it to make it happen. This is a good thing in a creek boat.

The boat will carve into a eddy but it is a little slow to start turning for me, but when I get it really on its side it will carve like a champ. Secondary stability is awesome.

I think this is a awesome creek boat and I love the shock absorber foot brace.

The rope system is not perfect but much improved. I like it. First boat ever for me to not do a lot of custom work on.

Due to the good design that makes it so good on creeks, I have to pay attention on flat water. Weight shifts are critical and the boat wants to turn, having said that, I can paddle it on the flats. It is a big boat but paddles smaller.

My most favorite river runner is my RPM Max. 'Vous two years ago, I purchased a Super Hero from OOO. Did not use this boat much but did take it to Lower Yoch last summer. Super boat. Carves like a dream. Surfs great. The control of this boat is awesome going into a eddy. It has the shock absorber bulkhead. Foot space is awesome. Paddles pretty good on the flats. Does not boof as easily for me as the Mega but boofs better than many other kayaks I have had. I know many of the younger hot creekers are using the Hero series on big time creek runs. My guess is the sharper edges and maybe easier eddy moves makes this boat work just fine for them.

So which boat is my choice. Neither. I love em both. If I am going to go somewhere where I am a bit nervious about the run, the rocker is my choice. If I am going some where with less gnar and some play, the Hero is my choice.

I just cannot do the heavy duty creek routes (the worst part of going on a Fish type creek run is the carry into the run!!!!!), so if you told me at this stage of my kayaking career I could only have one of the two boats it would be the Hero. To me the Hero is a play boat with plenty of foot room. It surprised me however how stable the Hero is. I hope to spend some time out on the Ark this summer and will probably take both boats down the same run IE Browns for sure and see which one works best.

I have 7 maybe 8 kayaks and use them all at one point or another. Super Hero may be the closest boat for my kind of paddling that does it all. Fun and comfortable surfing and good creeker for every thing but the super gnar low water runs.

I looked at the Jefe Grande and it looks like a good design. Check it out.

Bryanpin has it right. You need to decide where you want to go. Just based on these two boats my advice would be if you want to creek up there with the big guys and gals on serious creeks then get the Rocker. If you are going to be happy with runs like the Cossatot and Upper Richland and do a lot of "normal" river running along with lots of surfing then the Hero is the way to go.

One of the JK top notch boaters compared the rocker and hero like this.

If I was setting in a eddy above a drop that I was really scared of and had to run it or make a really scary ferry to the other side to avoid the gnar - If I ran the gnar I would want to be in the Rocker, If I did the ferry, I would want to be in the Hero. Otherwise I like both boats. Not his exact words but how I remember it. In my opinion that is a good comparison of the two boats.

There are many really good kayak designs out there. Jefe I mentioned. LL remix seems to be really good all around river running, was on a Lodore run in good water and one of the guys had the new Dagger Axiom and just had a great time in it. I had a Burn and loved it as an all around boat.

My experience is the short boats are really slow but turn great. I like designs around 8 feet. But I am more of a old school boater than a new one.


Bottom line look around, test as much as you can and go form there. Hard to find a bad design these days if you go with the popular ones as most are really good. Plastic can be a problem and you take your chances.

Good luck in your search.

[ckuntz]

Hero+Rocker = Villain
The new Villain creeker boat is blending characteristics of both. Should be a neat boat to demo in the spring. I bet Jeremy at O.O.O. will have more information later.
Chris K

[ScottH]

As Bryanpin said, Unless you are pushing up into the IV+, V range, a full on creeker is not needed. Something like a Jackson Hero or a Wavesport Diesel would server you better. I have run some of the hardest runs I have done in my Hero and my wife’s Diesel. And can honestly say that the boats have never let me down or been to blame for anything bad happening. In fact, the Hero has saved my screw ups a couple of times. Although the Hero has a plaining hull, it acts like a displacement once it is on its side, so I think it is the best of both worlds.

The Rocker, with its displacement hull will ricochet off of rocks just a little bit better then a Hero and have more speed, but can be a challenge to turn and maneuver. I personally got tired of having to change my paddling style from playboat (plaining) to creeker (displacement) so when I got my Hero it has meant that many of the same paddle strokes I use playboating will work in moving my Hero around. And that make paddling more enjoyable for me.

If you are only going to have one boat get a Hero/Diesel/Burn . If you already own a playboat, consider the Rocker/Hefe/Nomad but I still would recommend the riverrunner boats.

The Ammo is a fun boat and can be paddled down some serious runs but I always had a problem with how aggressive the edges were on it. Have not really paddled the Scud but it looks boxy. The problem with both is in steeper creeks you are sliding down wet rock, then hitting big holes. The rails/edges will hang and slow you down, or trip you up, and then the hole will have its way with the shorter boat.

In the used boat market, the Hero would be the best choice but will probably be the most expensive and not a lot can be found for sale. The Diesel would probably be the best boat to value and easiest to find. Then I would rank the Rockers/Nomads third. Last would be the Ammo and Scud since you are “in the market for a creekboat”

[ebell]

thanks for all the input. my best guess for now is try out a superhero or diesel if i can. perhaps as my skills progress i can take a look at a more serious creeker. Not looking to do any IV+ or V's just yet.

thanks again,
eric

[ckuntz]

Jackson is now listing the Villain on their website.
Chris K

[RomanLA]

I'd consider myself a class II+ boater that can run class III, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I paddle a semi-planing hull (Bliss-Stick Mystic) on whitewater and a displacement hull (Perception Eclipse) on flatwater.

The displacement hull seems much easier to roll. I think a displacement hull would also be more forgiving to a dropped edge...since it doesn't have one! lol Oh and speaking of rolling...the semi-planing hull of the Mystic is much easier to roll than the planing hull on the SCUD.

With that said, I'd still rather have my semi-planing hull with an edge for carving. It's great for getting in and out of eddys, plus it will turn on a dime in the river. That has saved my butt a couple of times, when I didn't see a barely submerged boulder till the last second. It's also pretty fun for surfing. Although, it doesn't spin nearly as fast as the shorter SCUD.

Speaking of the SCUD, I think it's probably best suited for an advanced boater taking it down familiar creeks that have play spots. It has the volume to get you to the surface on waterfalls and will throw huge loops. You can't practice with it on flatwater though, so I decided to sell mine.

I think most of the river running hull designs are pretty similar. I'd focus on the plastic and the outfitting. I'd put my Mystic plastic against any boat...it's a tank. I think the Jackson outfitting is really comfortable though. In the end, I guess it's all personal preference.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents!

[KAYAKN]

You can't practice with it on flatwater though, so I decided to sell mine.

"Oh Grasshopper"

[RomanLA]

"Oh Grasshopper"

Just be glad I'm not drinking Monster...I'd still be typing! lol

[RandyJ]

As a Hero owner, I'll add a couple of comments. First, I just found this short review by Darin McQuiod on the Hero. Darin boats gnar-gnar all over the planet, but I liked his comment about how much he enjoys his Hero on Class II-III.

Second, Okieboater and ScottH spend time in a lot more boats than I do, and I really appreciate their perspective. But their Hero comments really line up with my own experience with my Hero. It's just hard not to like this boat. I used to have a Diesel 65. I liked it a lot, too. My main beef with it was that with the flat deck on the back, I tended to get back-endered in steep drops (maybe my BDD/Boof Deficit Disorder was a contributing factor). Wavesport changed the back deck on the newer Diesels by rounding them up on the top, so that's probably fixed, and I'm pretty sure I'd be real happy creeking w/a D70.

Other things I like about the Hero - mostly what you've already heard:

• Very comfortable. Say what you want about JK outfitting, it's super easy and quick to get a custom fit, and adjust it on the fly to suit your paddling situation or to let your friends take a test drive.
• Uni-shock bulkhead. Haven't needed it yet, but it will definitely make a difference if/when.
• Light weight. Creeking almost always involves putting your boat on your shoulder, sometimes a lot. A few pounds can make a big difference, esp. when the day starts getting long. A few less pounds doesn't hurt when you're paddling, either.
• Roomy.
• See a good wave? Lock on and carve!
• Are you ScottH? Loop it!

I've had a couple of situations in the Hero where I missed a move and wondered if a Rocker or other displacement-hull boat would have been better. I concluded later that the problem was with the driver and not the vehicle.

Bottom line: what Scott said...Hero, unless you'll be doing high-end creeking a significant portion of your time, which probably means you're not in Arkansas. You may find a boat you like a bit better than the Hero - if you do, get it. But if you get a Hero, I'll bet you won't DISlike it. You or anyone else are welcome to test drive my Hero (or '10 All Star) whenever we cross paths.