Beginner Wanting To Purchase Own Gear - Looking For Advice

[euphplayer]

A little background info: I am pretty new to whitewater kayaking. I have paddled on the Upper White River a few times, and paddled on Lee Creek one day this past spring. That was enough to get me hooked, though. Other than that, my kayak experience is pretty much limited to playing kayak polo at the U of A and playing boatball with some of y'all at Lake Fayetteville once (I was the guy in the rec boat).

I saved up my money from my job this summer and want to get my own gear so I don't need to keep renting it. I would like to keep the total cost around $1000, but I could go up to about $1300. I realize that this means I will pretty much be looking at used gear, which is fine with me. But before I start buying it, I had a few questions.

Boat & Boat Size: I think I would like a river-runner style kayak. I don't really have much of a desire to get into play boating at this point - I think I'll stick to river running for the time being, but might want to venture into some light creeking type stuff once my skills advance to that point. So I would guess that a river runner would make the most sense? Also, as for size, I'm about 6', 150-155 pounds. When I rent a boat, I rent a regular Jackson Hero, and seem to fit in it ok with the bulkhead almost all the way forwards. I think I might feel more comfortable with one of the larger sized boats (i.e. Super Hero), but it looks like I am on the very low end of the weight range for those sizes. Would I get pushed around on rivers too much with a bigger boat?

Clothing: From what I have read, it seems like a dry top is the way to go. Sierra Trading Post has an Extrasport one for $120 right now, and I am very tempted to just order one. From reading their return policy, it sounds like it wouldn't be too much of a hassle to return it if I needed to for whatever reason. For shirts, I normally wear a medium, sometimes a large, but was thinking I would order a large to allow room for layering underneath in colder weather. I am always skeptical of ordering clothing before trying it on, but this seems like a really good deal. Unless anyone thinks this is a bad idea, I'll probably just go ahead and order one.

Cold-weather Clothing: Ok, I will confess that I paddled the White last December on a day that didn't really get much above freezing (if at all, I can't really remember). I found out the hard way that a farmer john wetsuit, neoprene socks, fleece, splash top, and 1.5mm neoprene gloves are NOT proper winter paddling attire. Would a dry top, layers of fleece, Hydroskin pants, splash pants, helmet liner under the helmet, and the appropriate footwear and gloves be adequate for winter paddling here in Arkansas?

I really appreciate any advice that y'all can give me (or anyone who just took the time to read all of this, for that matter).

(I did not put this in the "For Sale - Gear Swap" forum because I am not looking for offers of used gear necessarily, just looking for some advice. If I have posted this in the wrong forum, I apologize.)

Austin

[paddledog]

Austin,
It sounds like you have done your background reading.
You are on target with most of your selections.
Just a few bits of advice,
First, boat selection, no boat does it all. Here in Ark. We are blessed with most types of
paddling. From a family float on the Buffalo in a canoe to Steep Creekin' down Death Fang Falls.
Eventually you will end up with a quiver of boats, but for now Any boat is the right one.
Get out on the river and swap boats with other folks there. Just go up and ask,"can I try yours?"
Most will be glad to help. This will give you a chance to get the feel of different styles and sizes.
You will be amazed at the difference in boats that even look alike.

As for clothing/gear again you will end up with a big bag of extra stuff and a smaller duffel of stuff you
actually use. Watch what others are wearing and ask if they like it. What you described is a great start.

The only piece of gear you didn't mention is knowledge, it doesn't matter what is in your gear stash
if you don't know what to do with it. You can't buy knowledge but most folks are willing to give it away.
You came to a great place to start, this forum. Next place to try is the river itself. When you get to
the takeout, ask some of the other people there for advice. These are the ones doing it. Canoe School
is an encyclopedia of knowledge, but it only comes around in the spring. A swiftwater rescue course
will teach you about gear and procedures you need for when things go wrong. (And they will)

Welcome to the sport,
Stop me on the river and we'll talk.
Good luck and happy boating.

[501naildriver]

Paddledog is right on about other boaters wanting to help, it's as simple as asking. I have dealt with Sierra in the past, they are a good outfit to deal with. Check out the reviews on gear, and again ask other paddlers what they like, and what works for them. Be patient, be careful, and spend wisely, else you good end up like some I know with a trunk full of gear that does not work for you. In my opinion, the single most important piece of gear you should have is a GOOD quality helmet. Arkansas rivers, and creeks, are famous for their rocks, you only got one brain bucket, keep it safe. Welcome to the family!

[poserwannabe]

Austin it has been my experience with whitewater gear that you get what you pay for, obviously, im sure but the more expensive it is the better it will be. That extrasport top sounds pretty good though and i have bought many things from sierra, they are pretty good. Before you buy clothing without trying it on first call Sierra and explain to them your size, etc, they should help you with it, the best they can anyway! If it has latex gaskets, and they seem tight, cut them in a ring until they fit, not straight down the gasket, this will cause them to leak. For hand protection, neoprene keeps my hands warm, but my grip on the paddle gets worse so I prefer using poagies for warmth, just me though. Be cautious when purchasing your wet shoes, or at least factor the size of them into your fit in the boat. I dont know if they still make them, but I really like the nema by 5-10. For me shoes are one place you really want a good fit and solid warmth! Also you want something that wont slip, or has good grip when walking on wet rocks! Immersion Research makes a pretty nice base layer suit, the union suit, but in my opinion, I would stay away from other things by IR, I apologize if that offends anyone, that is just my opinion. Also I like capilene for base layers. Like they said be patient and search the internet for specials, or the local shops of course! Also, Iknow sometimes you can find really good deals on dry suits, which are more expensive but you really appreciate on cold days!!!

[rowings]

I'm also new (to this forum), woefully inexperienced at canoeing/kayaking and not near as well read as the guy who posted this question so bear with me. I'm looking to get two tandem kayaks, or canoes, for my wife and two boys who are 4 and 6. For the most part we'll just be tooling around lakes, ponds and slow moving creeks in the Russellville area until the boys are older and we're a little more comfortable with moving to something 'more exciting'. I would, however, like the option to take the kayak on something a little more challenging by myself so I'm kinda hoping to fulfill both desires with one boat (fingers crossed). I've been looking at a Wilderness Systems Pamilco 135T or 145T for my wife who is tiny and inexperienced and a Native Watercraft Marvel 14.5 Tandem for myself. I'm not trying to get someone to say one brands better than another, but I am looking for a little help in deciding if these brand names and models are going to meet my most important criteria of stability (their literature says yes) without costing me twice as much as a brand just as suitable.
Also, any pointers on what gear beyond paddles and PFDs that I will or won't need would also be nice.
Thanks up front for the info.

[A Savage spanke]

if you have 1000 dollars you're set. Buy the huck off the gear swap. Amazing boat, ask fish, I've got one, it's awesome. It's only like 400 bucks I think.

Warm clothes- If you want to waste your money on expensive stuff like hydro skin then buy mine. I go to uncle sams and buy poly propelene. It's super cheap and warm. Even on the coldest days with two pairs of pants, two shirts, two pairs of wool socks and a semi dry top, you're going to be warm. Its about 15 dollars an article of clothing, pretty fantastic. OR, if you have any friends in the millitary get them to snag you some. I hear that works too

[poserwannabe]

I would second spankes comments, Some people bash on the huck now but its a good size for arkansas creeks and personally I ran several class 5- creeks with it and always felt safe and confident in it. Also a good idea with the poly propylene.

[paddledog]

The only difference between the expensive and the cheap Pollypro that I have
found is the stink factor. The cheap stuff insulates just as well, however will
hold the wet neoprene funky smell a lot more than the expensive stuff.

The question is "How much do you value your shuttle drivers sense of smell?"

[Clif]

I would like to send out a good job to the inquiries on this thread. You give plenty of info and have spent some time and research on what you are looking for and what is available. I know it gets overwhelming but he generic..."what would be a good boat for me," leaves many in a "where to begin" situation as far as an answer.

That sed... I'm gonna leave your answers to more qualified responders. Happy hunting.

[RomanLA]

Cold-weather Clothing: Ok, I will confess that I paddled the White last December on a day that didn't really get much above freezing (if at all, I can't really remember). I found out the hard way that a farmer john wetsuit, neoprene socks, fleece, splash top, and 1.5mm neoprene gloves are NOT proper winter paddling attire. Would a dry top, layers of fleece, Hydroskin pants, splash pants, helmet liner under the helmet, and the appropriate footwear and gloves be adequate for winter paddling here in Arkansas?

Do you own that farmer john wetsuit already? If so, a dry top and farmer john wetsuit would work well together. Then you would just need a good insulating layer under your dry top.

The warmest gloves I've found are made by Glacier Glove. I'm going to try their mittens and pogies this year.
http://www.glacierglove.com./products_water.php

The safest helmet for the price is the WRSI Current. It comes with 3 sets of pads, so you shouldn't have a problem getting a good fit.
http://www.wrsisafety.com/helmets.asp

I've been using the NRS Mystery Helmet Liner for the last couple of years and really like it.
http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product.asp? ... deptid=942

Oh yeah, I started carrying a beanie and gloves in my dry box last year. They were nice when we stopped for breaks!

[BEubanks]

Hey Austin,

You've gotten some good feedback on most of your gear questions. I'll chime in on the boat selection. I'm your size: 6ft tall and 150-160 pounds (less in summer more in winter). Your stated preference is river runner and then some creeking. You've rented a Jackson Hero and wonder about the larger super Hero, right? I'd say stick with the regular size. Once you get your own you can adjust the fit better than in a rental. For mine I had to move the seat all the way forward to get the performance I wanted. Then to have enough room for my feet I cut the thick foam bulkhead in half (vertically). This left plenty of cushion and plenty of room.

Given your intended paddling, river running then creeking, I'd say the Hero is a really good fit. That's why I bought mine this summer, though I also wanted a boat for teaching out of. Haven't gotten to try it out on the creeks yet but so far it has fit the bill well. Very comfortable, plenty of room, hull allows for some good surfing, and enough volume for creeking.

As far as the rest of your gear goes, nothing wrong with being a budget boater. I have been and expect to continue to be. Don't worry too much about "fashion" comparisons on the river. As long as you're comfortable and warm, you can enjoy paddling, and that's the point, right?

Byron

[A Savage spanke]

I don't think any poly pro will stink that bad. The worse smelling piece of gear i've ran across is Jermdogs black rash guard and you can't smell it riding with him, but you can if he throws it in your face.

I def. disagree with Roman. I have a wrsi and it doesn't fit me at all no matter what pad combination I use. If it fits they're amazing, if they don't they arn't helping. I have a sweet strutter that fits amazingly, but if I recomend that I'll get flamed on this board. I've never had a shred ready but everyone I know that has one loves it, so you might want to check that direction

[poserwannabe]

What RomanLA said about the drytop/farmer john combo is actually the setup I use and it works great!! the only problem I have with it is on multiday trips when it is cold and you dont have access to a dryer, its hard putting that cold gear back on in the morning! But once you get it on you warm back up. I am also a budget boater, which is why I use it but every year the dry/splash pant with base layers is looking better and I think the price has come down some!

Also Ive recently gone to using a thin layer of fleece under my helmet, for warming my head, instead of a skull cap. The reason being is that I dont hear very well with a skullcap, but i always keep a good one in my pfd on cold days!

[euphplayer]

Wow. First, I'd like to thank everyone for their responses. All great advice!

A few things:

Helmets - I definitely know how important helmet fit is. I've broken a helmet before when I was younger, and have always worn one ever since. I definitely will on the river. But thanks for all who re-iterated this point - you can never hear it too many times!

I do not own the farmer john wet suit that I mentioned earlier - it was one that I had rented. It does seem like the farmer john and dry top is a popular combination, so it is something that I'll consider.

Byron - thank you the boat size advice! That's just what I was looking to hear!

Poly pro - I'll definitely look into that. For the price Spanke gave, I think that it is certainly worth a try before dropping the kind of money that Hydroskin costs. As for the smell, I have allergies and my nose is usually stuffed up anyways, so no problem there...at least not for me!

paddledog - Thank you for being so welcoming! I have done my background reading, but at the same time, I know that it is no substitute for real-world experience. I certainly won't be shy about asking for advice or help on the rivers.

Once again, I would like to sincerely thank everyone for their advice. It has all been great, and I'll take it all into consideration. And if anyone still has more advice - keep it coming! I'd love to hear it!

Austin

[RichardL]

I am not sure where you are at in the state, but as i have done, I would recommend taking a trip to OOO in Hot Springs. Basically, I and several others have walked into that shop and stated something similar to "Hey I want to start kayaking". They will help answer any of your questions, point you in the right direction(even if it means not selling you something).

Just be careful thats how they trap you into future purchases