The REAL Beast of the Forest

[msullivan57]

Over the last couple of years when I am out walking a trail or on the river I have started to fear being attacked by a beast. Not a cottonmouth, bear, lion, or the usual suspects. It is the mighty tick that I fear. There have been an increasing number of people I have talked to that mention either having a family member or a person they know that has contracted either Lyme disease or Rocky Mountain spotted fever. The concern is even greater since my two year old grandson is with me a lot now. I'm not saying this is an epidemic, just that it appears to be a real concern if you are outdoors in the Spring through the Fall. The things I have learned is that a lot of regular insect repellents are not effective against ticks. From reading the CDC website, it is recommended that a repellent with 20 or 30% deet be used on the skin and Permethrin be used on clothes. Permethrin should not be applied to skin but supposedly kills ticks on contact and is the most effective product on ticks. Of course, you need to be careful using either one on small children. I had not heard of Permethrin until last year. You can get Permethrin at some outdoors stores and websites but the cheapest way is go to a store like tractor supply and get the concentrated product, dilute it, and put in a spray bottle to apply to clothes.
I'm not an expert but since there are obviously so many outdoors people on this board I figured there would be a lot of good insights. Hearing from people with Lyme disease, it can cause misery for years to come and be difficult to diagnose and treat. Sure don't want to experience that.

Mike

[okieboater]

Back in the early 90's a paddling bud of mine got a tick bite on the last day of a colorado boating trip. A little creek called Conejos in southern CO. We are pretty sure it happened there as there was a grassy field at the take out, sunny day and out came the pads and all of us took some power naps before starting the drive back to OK.

he did not find the tick, but back home in Tulsa, came down with big time head aches to the point his wife took him to the ER.

Took the local Doc's a day to get the diagnosis down. I am sure more ER's are aware of tick bites and related symptoms now.

they put a ton of different medications into him and it took a while for him to recover.

Bottom line, if the right tick bites you - big time problems!

[Zakkt]

My girlfriend is OCD when it comes to hygiene, and isn't an outdoorsy person. However, she has (somehow?) managed to get Lyme disease twice - in the past two years. The poor girl has only found two ticks on her in the last two years! Can anyone say "Unlucky"? The only thing I can imagine that is beastier than a tick carrying Lyme disease is a crazy girlfriend carrying Lyme disease. I support this thread

DEET


-Zakk

[martinm]

Repel Permanone. Get it at Wal-Mart, I think Gander Mtn carries it too. Can is copper colored with a blue top. It works...

It is 0.5% permithrin. Be sure and follow the instructions, don't apply to skin, only your clothes. It lasts on the clothing for several washings. Again, read the instructions and follow them.

This stuff really does work. We were bushwhacking last week in deep woods with State Park staff and I didn't pick up a single seed tick, in-star tick, or the like.

My girl friend got Rocky Mtn fever from a tick about two years ago, spent time in the hospital, and still has health problems from it.

Martin

[Richard]

There are a lot of myths about ticks. . . . like . . . it takes at least 24 hours for a tick to be attached before it can do its damage. I am living (barely) proof that aint so. Also there are multiple tick borne infections. Two most notible are Lymes and Rocky Mtn. The one I got Apr 26 was for Ehrlichiosis. It then brought on meningitis and pneumonia with their own problems. The CDC website is right on. Each type has its own specialized medication for best results so it is critical to determine ASAP which bacteria the tick transmitted.

First line of defense is always avoidance. You normally will not see me in the woods when ticks are active. One obvious exception took place Apr 26. STUPID!

Second is effective repellent.
Permethrin treated clothes properly layered (light colored pants tucked into light colored socks)
Deet based repellents on skin. (this is one area that green is not good. Only deet comes close to being effective)

Third, Thorough and frequent tick checking.

Lastly, If you have been amongst the ticks within the last 30 days, monitor your health. Headaches, flu or cold like symptoms. Swings in body temperature (fever - cold sweats) or lack of energy and just not feeling up to par could all be indicators a tick got you.

When I went to the Med Center, all I knew was that I did not feel good and nothing I did seemed to be doing any good. The last thing I expected to hear was that the root of the problem was a tick bite.

[okieboater]

Richard, your post explains a lot. Tick fever sounds like the bad guy for sure. Hope your recovery continues to be good and you are back on the water leading Buffalo River trips soon.

My kayaking bud, explained his condition to me as "every hair on my head felt like a hot poker", complete with fever, sweats and muscle pain. When his wife called me from the ER, she was scared to the max and so were the rest of us. Jon was having trouble breathing ----- very scary.

Tick bites from infected ticks are serious and most people do not realize just how dangerous they can be.

[Karla]

Richard,
Glad to see you home and doing better. We were worried about you. Hope your soon back on your feet and on the river soon. Thanks for your advice about the tics. Will heed that warning.

Karla

[Half Ton]

yup, ticks suck

[dwilson]

Seems all things have a reason for being here. Can anybody tell me what ticks are good for? Are they some kind of tropical thang that rode in on a monkey in a wooden ship?

[msisco]

ticks are a main food source for numerous species of our avian inhabitants, they also contribute significantly to soil airation from burrowing during gestation of the much hated seed ticks,, yeah, they can be annoying and in some instances life threatening, ive had spotted fever myself, its considerable less fun than say,,,, a root canal, but all in all, they are just one of the multitude of things that can create problems for the mammalian species on this little rock we call earth and should be regarded as such, no more and no less,, some people have phobias regarding ticks, mosquitos, fleas (remember a little thing we refer to as the plague??), then again, some people have phobias of water. basically what im getting at is that an over reaction to isolated incidences is in no way beneficial, rational, or even healthy,,,,,,,,,,, that being said, Richard, glad youre doing better, kinda humbling to think something so small can knoc down one of us "invincable humans" isnt it? i also hope you can realize that even though it landed you in the hospital for some time, you had a bette chance of winning the lottery than you did of contracting a life threatening condition from a tick bite. ok,, diatribe over,, you may now berate me at leisure

[ouachita hiker]

One more source for Permanone is from the surplus stores. I had some Permanone that was intended to treat BDU's. Got it from a nephew that had just came out of the service. It came in a OD colored plastic bag. You had some permanone concentrate along with gloves and a separate bag to place the garment in. It was some real strong stuff! The only thing since it was water based it could only be used on cotton garments. All of my hiking clothes are nylon based. Don't know if it can be found on the open market but this method would be great if you had cotton clothes.

Tom

[Richard]

If ticks became extinct I would be out there celebrating. There are plenty of less harmful critters to take their place.

[Paddlegal]

Permethrin is derived from Marigolds and is also put in your dog's flea soap and spray. My friend used it on her guide dog at the school's advice.

The higher the ingredient level you can get of this the better. I have only see it once .010, its usually .005%. If you find a product that is .010 let us all know!

Richard I am so horribly distressed that this happened to you! And floatgal too and all the trouble she went through. Seems like we just get too many "hits" of these illnesses in the club.

[Eric Esche]

I've been doing some more reading and electronic surfing. here are some things found about permethrins:

Do NOT use on cats!

Permethrin for use by humans as a repellant is blended for the purpose of bonding to fabric. Most Permethrin is agricultural which is for pest control on vegetation. Its design purpose is to stick to plants ... protecting the plants. Veterinary products are designed to adhere to animal skins/hair or premises and are not for fabric application. Some Permethrin is formulated for treatment of medical conditions such as head lice and scabies. The formulations are not interchangeable mostly because of solvents utilized. Source:thefuntimesguide.com

Permethrin for humans is a clothing treatment only, and is not to be worn next to the skin. Permethrin is labeled for clothing treatment only and is not to be applied to, or come in direct contact with the skin. This is because, while there are no known side effects of Permethrin usage, no long-term (40 year) studies have been done to determine if there are any long-term usage effects. Therefore, Permethrin should not be used on headphones or headphone foam coverings, or in any manner not specifically indicated on the product label.
Source:sawyerproducts.com

Permethrin acts similarly to the insecticide pyrethrum (from the chrysanthemum plant). Pyrethrum can cause skin or respiratory reactions in people with hayfever or in people who are sensitive to ragweed and pollen. These reactions may include irritation or inflammation of the skin (contact dermatitis) or sneezing, nasal stuffiness, or asthmatic breathing. Although there is no clear evidence that pyrethroids (such as permethrin) cause allergic-type reactions, it is important to recognize this possibility (3). Source:smi-voyage-sante.com

Note - I may be one of those few who are sensitive to it. Have had past respiratory problems when it was used and in the air.

Permethrin is a contact insecticide. That is, it kills ticks or other insects when it comes in contact with them. It is used on clothing and materials. It uses the same active ingredient used in hair shampoos for head lice. When applied to clothing, the Permethrin binds to the fabric eliminating the risk of over-exposure to the skin. Source:sawyer.com

Permethrin has been around since the 1970s and has a perfect safety record. The Department of Agriculture and other institutions did early research on it for use in protecting crops from insects. It has been shown to be non-toxic to humans. EPA and FDA tests found it rare to have even skin reddening or other irritation. Source:footprintpress.com

Permethrin has been used for many years, with no human poisoning cases reported. No indication exists that permethrin has a significant adverse effect on humans when used as recommended. It has induced skin sensations and paraesthesia in exposed workers, but these effects disappeared within 24 hours. Transient numbness, itching, tingling, and burning sensations have been reported in a small percentage of humans after dermal exposure to permethrin when it was used to treat head lice (WHO 1990).

Cheapest place I've found permethrin was on Amazon.com. For the stuff to spray on the outside of your clothes, the 24 ounce pump spray bottle from Sawyer seems to be a good choice.

I'm going to also gets some of the stronger stuff to spray our yard with, but I will take all precautions with spraying including a rated mask, gloves, and goggles, and after wash up.

Found my .22 shells with rat shot and am going to dust a few posteriors of the deer that frequent our yard since the sling shot doesn't seem to be making an impression on them. I know - a .30-06 works better, but Susan said no, and we don't have a large freezer.

[msullivan57]

In case anyone didn't notice, after reading Eric's reply it would not be good to follow my suggestion to purchase Permethrin concentrate from tractor supply or other farm supply outlets. Not that anyone has ever followed one of my suggestions, but just in case. I read the instructions and it is for livestock and pesticide applications on farms. I assume it is not made to bond to clothing, as Eric mentioned products for human use are made to do. Don't think there would be any harm in using the livestock version, just wouldn't bond to clothing and be effective as long.
Regarding animals. My daughter worked for a Vet for several years. She said several dogs were brought in with Rocky Mountain spotted fever and none of them survived. One factor was they probably were not brought in early enough. I understand Permethrin is an effective preventative treatment for fleas and ticks on dogs. Don't have a dog, but I know I have been flea free since using.

Mike