Saftey and Rescue

[paddlinggoddess]

Just wanted some opinions on safety and rescue etiquette. I was in a situation this weekend where some folks in canoes needed help. Renee and myself went help theses folks but only had one rope at the time, we asked another boater if they had a spare rope? We were dressed out and headed to the river to help, the person we asked for a rope had two, but he said that he would have to dress out and assess the situation before he could help. He gave us no rope. We went ahead and started our rescue without the extra rope, and got the people to shore and their canoe with help from James and Ricky who hand paddled the baot to the swim area, while Renne and myself took care of the swimmers. My question is if you have a spare rope and someone needs it do you give it to them or make the people you are trying to help wait? They where not whitewater boaters and needed help asap. Just looking for feedback. The name of the boater who would not lend the rope has been left out on purpose, but he is a big advocate of river saftey and trained in swiftwater rescue. I am wrong at being a little bit peeved since he would not lend a rope and then belittled us in front of the folks we had just helped? Any input would be great.
Sabrina

[panicman]

It's just a freakin rope :roll: I would have let you borrow my rope if I had good reason to believe you half way knew what you were doing.

[Cowper]

It is a recommended practice that after every rescue situation, those involved get together for a "debriefing" - a discussion of what went well, and what could have gone better or been done differently. Each person can say things like, "I did this, because I thought that ____." The goal is for all involved to maximize the "lessons learned" from each event.

I don't know what really happened here - did the person not understand the urgency? Were they concerned about some liability issue if they just tossed you the rope? There must have been some logic, but only that person can tell us what went through his mind at the time, in the heat of the battle. I recommend you try to make contact with the involved person to "debrief" this event. The goal is learning for all involved!

Now, to your specific question: "My question is if you have a spare rope and someone needs it do you give it to them or make the people you are trying to help wait?"

My answer: If I knew it was a "time critical" rescue, I'd toss you my rope. If I thought it was a "static" situation (like, pinned boat, or people already perched on mid-stream rock), I would probably hold on to my rope and come down to help you as soon as I could. In either situation, if I had two ropes, I'd keep my "favorite", you'd get my spare.

[turboturtle]

Yup! If lives were in eminent danger, ie (still hanging on to their sunken vessel). I think anyone there has an obligation to help rescue individuals, ASAP. Recovery of a pinned, submerged canoe might be of concern for owners of some ropes, as weight ratings can easily be exceeded on even the most expensive of. That person might not wish to have their ropes quality compromised for the rescue of a canoe. Did said person ever return to consider helping, or were they only interested in belittling you guys for a swift rescue. Inquiring mimes want to know!
As Cowper related, If I had two ropes, Ida at least tossed you the lesser of regardless of how it was going to be used. I can't even imagine being belittled for a rescue. ( Why- because you didn't take a rescue course from them). I can't say what I woulda said if that was the case. But I would have hammered them back for leaving you in that situation when they could have helped.
Oh wait, that's what your doing here.

My $0.02

[KAYAKN]

If i knew what your level of rescue training was i would give you all my gear if i couldnt help in a timely manner. Maybe the person that had the gear but didnt want to give it to you could have become the IC and then let you use his or her gear when they seen it was needed. (Just my thoughts) Rescue gear in the wrong hands can do more harm than good. The cost of rescue gear is in know way the same value of someones life. I wish everyone would take a SWR class!!!!!

[Dean]

If Sabrina or Renee asked me for my rope in an emergency I wouldn’t hesitate because I know they have the experience to judge the situation. If it were someone I didn’t know I might have to think it over since a tangle of ropes could worsen the event. Either way I would get my butt down there quick!
It sounds like the person that refused to offer up the rope wanted the glory of the rescue for himself instead of truly trying to help quickly. I imagine the people in the water (or stranded on a rock) were totally freaking out. Personally I wouldn’t bring a rope to the river that was too good to use on rental goobers. Save the good rope for a challenging river where you may be the one in need of help.
What river was it anyway?

[Renee H]

Okay, let's clear some stuff up - the person who didn't give us the rope DID try to help. The comment was that he needed to assess the situation before he got involved. My bad was that I didn't slow down long enough to tell him details of our plan, but we did tell him we had a plan. Also to his defense, he may not have been aware that Sabrina and I both have had SWR classes. Yes, I was miffed that he would not give us a rope when we asked, but maybe he didn't realize we were already the incident commanders. I can only guess that he thought he needed to take over. When we did not get the second rope, we went with plan B. Also, regarding the urgency of the matter, it was not life or death. The guys swimming were in cold water and probably needed to get out, but we could only go so fast. As far as them being "rental goobers," they did come down and scout everything and had doubts about running the 3 drops in the loop. The only reason they had an incident was they didn't have floatation in their canoes. They were really nice to us and thankful for our help. After talking with them, we realized they had some experience with whitewater - they just didn't realize they would take on so much water, which is why their canoes were sinking. They were all good swimmers. I towed the canoe across and Sabrina paddled along side of them giving them instruction on where to swim since they had to go through the next rapid (which is pretty rocky) Anyway, our plan B worked and all was well. Sabrina even patched up a couple boo-boos and they gave us beer I understand the concern about not wanting to loan gear, but if I damaged someone's gear I would certainly replace it. I wasn't around during the speech between Sabrina and the "person" but she was extremely upset about the conversation as was I when she relayed the info to me. Anyway, maybe all of this was a result of lack of communication on all parts - who knows........

[paddlinggoddess]

I am sorry if I ruffled some feathers but I thought that the whole point to being a paddler and a part of the community was to promote the sport, not be a snob and not help people that are not part of your group. I know that there are times when people don't want,. or refuse help, but this was not the case. Where do you draw the line? I personal will help if i can without making more victims but to refuse a piece of gear was in my opinion stupid, and not an advocate for our sport. Just my thoughts.
Sabrina

[Cowper]

No feathers ruffled here!

I can imagine a few situations where I might not give out a rope without coming down to help (like someone said, pinned boat) ----but those situations are different than the one you faced.

From your posts, plus what I've learned from our conversations, he should have loaned you the rope. Also, if he tried to "debrief", but did it in a way that came across as belittling you in from of the people you had just helped, then that was wrong too.

Everybody's safe - all gear recovered.

[walter]

this is not directed to persons involved or not involved just my 2 cents.i think we should all help each other out in the time of need no matter the situation.a friend that i paddle with recently went to tennessee and paddle some of the rivers.he was telling me that almost everyone he saw standing on the banks of the rivers had a throw rope in hand waiting help boaters out.the river dosen't discriminate. paddle safely and watch other backs.

[chris martin]

Amen to that! Nicely put.

[prophet]

this is why i carry a laminated signed waiver in my lifejacket pocket addressed "To whom it may concern"

[okieboater]

Renee and Sabrina, I am not going to comment on the person who did not want to loan you his rope, the river spirits will take care of that, what I do want to say is a great big "THANK YOU BOTH" for doing what you could do to help a paddler in need.

I have been on both ends of a throw rope many times and speaking for myself and those folks you helped, there is no better sight than a rope - bow / stern - or a helping hand when you are in trouble and swimming!!!

You two set a great example for other paddlers to follow!

[bmartin]

The only thing that I might add, is that I truly hope that if my wife, my kids, or their friends who would fall into the occassional / recreational class of paddlers were getting worked in a river, there would be no time spent pondering whether to lend a rope, much less deny access to potentially life saving equipment. Heck I would lend out my boat, paddle, rope, or vehicle if people were in peril as I am sure most boaters would.

I just hope that if anyone in my group ever needs some sort of rescue (hear the sounds of wood knocking), may we be fortunate enough to be near the likes of Renee or Sabrina.

[Dee Tucker]

We all train to throw a rope to someone in need if they want it, whether we know them or not. Why would we not throw our bag to someone who needed it for a rescue? If one of you two said to me, "hey, we need your rope", I expect that I would have tossed it to you, and while it was in mid-air I would have been asking if you needed any help. We also train as instructors to give constructive critiques or debriefs which include positive feedback, and to take care not to deride or belittle someone's efforts. I am not judging anyone or a situation I did not witness, but this is my reaction to your story.