Whoop & Holler Access

[Fish]

Sure the ACC doesn't HAVE to purchase signs. We do it because we value the river access we have and we're more than willing to meet landowners halfway in keeping private accesses open, whether they own a river-related business or not. Surely every paddler who uses river accesses can understand that. Byrds and Turners and Whoop are great accesses to have on the Mulberry. But abuse them enough and we will lose them. I'd bet that Mulberry is like everywhere else I've been in that private boaters don't bring in the revenue that rental boaters do, so we're not exactly the top of outfitters' priority list. Just basic economics.

Best policy is to go way out of our way to treat landowners with respect and courtesy when accessing streams using their land. These are not public accesses - we have ZERO rights to use that land without permission. So if you gotta swallow some of your pride even if you feel like you're being picked on, so what? If you gotta pay for access even when it's against you're religion or politics or whatever, so what? Just smile and tip your hat and pay the fees and put your boat on the water and enjoy the surfing. Or go use another access where you can keep your pride/values/whatever intact. No one is forcing you to use private accesses, right?

I'll keep using the access at Whoop myself, and I'll spread the word that everyone needs to pay and remind those who forget. I also support the ACC helping out by buying a couple of signs that will inform folks and help prevent future friction with the landowners at the site.

- Fish

[Fish]

The Byrds should not take insult by this. Where I work, "all" means "all", and "all" = 100%.[/quote]

I can translate that because I'm an engineer, and therefore given to exacting, nerdy, anal definitions myself. :-)

[prophet]

from this thread i have concluded playboaters are whiny, cheap, IRS agents.
no wonder you need park & play,nobody wants to shuttle with you even if you could paddle downstream

[RandyJ]

Best policy is to go way out of our way to treat landowners with respect and courtesy when accessing streams using their land. These are not public accesses - we have ZERO rights to use that land without permission. So if you gotta swallow some of your pride even if you feel like you're being picked on, so what? If you gotta pay for access even when it's against you're religion or politics or whatever, so what? Just smile and tip your hat and pay the fees and put your boat on the water and enjoy the surfing. Or go use another access where you can keep your pride/values/whatever intact. No one is forcing you to use private accesses, right?

- Fish

As my grand-dad might have said, "You slobbered a bib-full there, son!" (Arky-speak for "right on!")

[davidbob]

from this thread i have concluded playboaters are whiny, cheap, IRS agents.
no wonder you need park & play,nobody wants to shuttle with you even if you could paddle downstream

I love you, man.

[BooF4FooD]

i didnt read through the whole thread, so sorry if this has already been touched on, but why not some sort of gate system...

what i mean is... a gate with a keycard entry... something like hotel keys or something.... sure it what cost a little money, but you would make it back, and actually be getting the money from folks...

you could just make it where people come in, sign up, you give them a plastic key card with a number on it, you make note of the number on the card, then send them on their way.... this would good, because now if someone took a key home with them, then you know who it is.... also, if you are worried about someone providing fake names, then a showing of I.D. isnt too ridiculous...

sounds like a plan to me....

[Fish]

I think a gate was ruled out earlier, and a card system is a bit more money indeed... Good idea in general, but we're either going to help police it ourselves via peer pressure, etc. or we will lose it.

- Fish

[okieboater]

As a retired retailer I have some experience on getting people to pay for what they pick up or actually steal.

The secret here is for the retailer to make it a lot easier for the customer to pay as opposed to just walking out.

There are tons of ways to do this.

I like Byrds, support their right to manage their land as they wish.

But, since so many are giving opinions - I will as well.

Byrds has to make the payment process and enforcement of same a lot easier to pay and very painful if you do not pay. I know in our stores customers had to come in the store and leave right in front of the cash register. The clerk normally looked customers in the eye and said hello just to let the customer know the clerk knew the person was in the store. There was one door that customers had to pass thru. However, if you got caught stealing, the police were called and the thief got to explain to the police why they had a carton of cigarettes hidden under their shirt as they walked out the door.

Until Byrds does this, my opinion, they are urinating into the wind wanting 100 percent compliance with the payment process or even a few percentage point of payment.

People are people and there is a certain percentage that will scheme and not pay. Only way to take care of them is catch em and put them in jail.

There is a certain percentage of people that will always pay even when it is hard to do and easy to walk out. These are your customers that you need to recognize and give them free stuff or big discounts so they stay with you.

My opinion the biggest percentage of customers are those who mostly pay, but if the retailer makes it easy for them not to pay, they will not pay all the time either by forgetting or just not taking the time.

The ACC, this message board and Byrds can wirte even longer diatribes than this one, but until Byrds makes it easier to pay, puts some sort of benefit to those who pay and pain to those who don't -- not much is gonna change.

I bet if Byrds lined up a bunch of wreckers and hauled off every vehicle that was not showing a sticker - more people would pay. Would not take very many of these operations for the word to get out.

If Byrds some how put up a gate for the locals and routed all the play boaters by the office and had someone in the office all the time to take money more would pay.

Expecting 100 percent of the general public to go out of their way to pay for entrance to any attraction when there is no enforcement procedure is not realistic in this day and time.

Off my soapbox now, flame away!

[RomanLA]

The signs should definitely help with the occasional user. It seems like the best solution for the regulars would be an annual pass though.

[johned]

All the talk of gates, cards, having a special employee, etc. assume that Whoop & Holler entry fees make up a significant portion of Byrd's business. I kinda doubt that $5 entry fees from park and play would ever justify the expenses some of our solutions would generate. When the hassle of collecting this little bit of extra income becomes too great, I can't see why they would continue to offer the service. They'll just quit offering it and concentrate on the core profit centers.

At least that is what I've done with income streams that were taking up a disproportionate amount of time.

[HomeGrown]

I completely understand byrds' way of thinking; shut it down. There comes a time place when to call it quits. I've been there. I know what it is like. Thats because I ran Cadron Creek Outfitters for several years an I have seen my fair share of sneak theives an lairs. And I have seen my fair share of ACC MEMBERS DOING THE SAME SO I WILL DISAGREE WITH YOU THAT ALL ACC MEMBER ARE 100% PAYING. But, I have met some pretty nice folks in running CCO an some great memories too. And it would be a shame to see Bryds go. Really, crazy little things like that can build up over the years with people not wanting to pay... "can shut a business down." Best believe it We did it at CCO; best believe Bryds' will do it too if it keeps up.

[Fish]

Clearly the cost of fancy gates and things like that won't be worth the hassle at Whoop. Even if the wave is good for 50 days out of the year and 10 people pay on each of those days, that's only $2500 each year. Not worth a lot of hassle, and that's way on the high side...

Hopefully the Byrds will keep it open for us all. We're not saying ACC members all pay and others don't. I have no idea who is and isn't paying. I just know we better get our collective s*** together and try to do what we can to make sure there aren't too many folks who don't pay, or we're going to lose the access there. If not enough people care about that access, it'll be gone. I had assumed a lot of folks cared enough to try to make sure the Byrds aren't getting ripped off. Hope I'm not wrong.

Again, ACC voted to do what we can as an organization to put up signs and raise awareness. No one's saying ACC is going to police the place though - that's up to all the paddlers who love playing at Whoop and who don't mind paying $5 to park and play there. If you see someone who isn't paying, they're going to get us all locked out of there. If you choose to just ignore them and don't say anything about it, we can probably kiss that access goodbye.

- Fish

[SteveGabbard]

So can we, or can we not have beer at Longpool? Because that seems like where this is going.

[Cowper]

On the 100% thing, that was not Byrds statement, that was me raising a concern that could be reworded as, "maybe it is already too late". Later Fish ascertained and Byrd's confirmed that one or two goobers cheating one time will not be taken as a failure. Since some information was obtained via PM's, I don't want to violate the "P" in PM, but I can tell you that you'd be suprized how low the current level of compliance is, and secondly, that if we do our best, it will probably be good enough. But what we can't do is just turn our heads and "mind our own business" when others are cheating. Just remember, it IS our business, because if we let it continue to happen, we all lose the access, not just the cheaters.

On the issue of the club helping a private business with their signs; I struggled with that at first, but, having thought about it more, I hope Byrds will accept this offer. I'm OK with it for several reasons; as others pointed out, this one activity is probably not a major line item in Byrd's overall income, so if they have to dump a bunch of money into signs or gates, it may not be worth the investment to them. So ACC defraying a portion of that cost is a worthy use of club funds to help keep an access point open. Perhaps more importantly, vendors like Byrds often make contributions to the ACC, in the form of donations for silent auction, via voluteer instruction at Canoe School by owners/employees, or by promoting the club with flyers or membership applications made available at their place of business. Byrds would have to give a specific listing, but overall I bet we get more than we have given. Bottom line, as pointed out earlier, a vote was taken and the vote said "help with the signs".

[Prairie Tater]

Cowper said:

So ACC defraying a portion of that cost is a worthy use of club funds to help keep an access point open. Perhaps more importantly, vendors like Byrds often make contributions to the ACC, in the form of donations for silent auction, via voluteer instruction at Canoe School by owners/employees, or by promoting the club with flyers or membership applications made available at their place of business.

This is an excellent point, Cowper. I definately agree, and I see this as a joint ACC/Byrd's venture. It is win/win for both.

I admit that I haven't been to Whoop yet this year, but when I do, I'll to non-payers.

Prater