Newbies need equipment advice

[d_razorback]

My wife and I are just getting into canoeing and we need a little advice on what size/shape canoe we should buy for our 1st canoe? We will primarily be hitting water like Big Piney Creek, Illinois Bayou, and maybe the Spring and Mulberry Rivers.

I don't want to spend a lot on our first since it will likely see a fair amount of rocks initially. I found two models that are fairly inexpensive and seem right up our alley.

The first one is a Old Town Rockport. It's 14'L x 42"W x 18"D. It seems like it would be a good shape for our 1st canoe but I'm concerned about the material it's made of. It says it's made of thermoformed polyethylene and from what I'm reading that's not too good. I like the length and width of this boat because I think it would be easier to handle and less prone to flipping.

The next boat is a Pelican Dare Devil. It's 15'6"L x 37"W. It doesnt' say how deep it is. It's made of Ram-X polyethylene which should be a better quality I think. I realize it would be a little more prone to tipping over because it is more narrow but I think it still sounds better due to what the hull is made of.

What would you guys look for in your first canoe? Any suggestions? Please feel free to correct me if I am misinformed about any of this.

[Richard]

We will primarily be hitting water like Big Piney Creek, Illinois Bayou, and maybe the Spring and Mulberry Rivers.

The two canoes you mentioned are not what I would even consider for running the rivers you mentioned. I would suggest going to the Big Piney or Mulberry and renting.
I would not get a canoe with a molded seat. Web seats are the only way to go because they allow you to turn the canoe around and paddle solo from what would normally be the bow seat.
My first canoe was an Old Town Discovery 169. I now have 4 canoes and I still use it more than any of the others.

[Scoupe]

I agree with Richard. For the type of use you've indicated, an Old Town Discovery 158 or 169 would be a better fit. Should be able to find a decent used one in your price range.

The boats you've mentioned, especially the 42" wide one, may have good intial stability so they won't feel very "tippy", but they'll paddle and handle like barges on moving water.

Judging from your stated choices, you're concerned with the "tippiness" as well as intial cost. Consider that if outfitters up and down the Buffalo will rent a Discovery to just about anyone with a pulse and $45, they must be stable enough for even the most novice paddlers as well as able to take a fair number of rocks along the way.

[Karla]

Something you might consider is getting kayaks. There are members who would probably loan you some to try out. Check out going with a group when it is posted on the easier rivers and borrow a kayak to try. They are more stable, some easier to paddle and maneuver and not as tippy as a canoe. Some have dry storage in the back. Check the board for used boats for sale. I think a kayak is more fun. Although you may get more wet than in a canoe.

Karla

[d_razorback]

I appreciate all the advice. My wife and I are really excited about getting started paddling and it's nice to here from so many like-minded people.

I am from the Russellville area so for now I will probably just be learning on Big Piney Creek. My wife and I were looking into going to the rec school on the Spring River in May but we have two small kids and we don't wanna have to leave them with family the entire weekend. So, instead I talked with the people at Moore Outdoors and they said they would set us up with an instruction session for a very reasonable price.

I used to float a bit as a younger teenager on places like Crooked Creek. That's been about 15 years ago though. When my wife and I thought we would go float the Piney last summer I realized I was WAY out of practice as we had a couple spills including one that involved hearing the canoe hit my wife's head as I went under water. Needless to say that was not a pleasant experience. Oddly enough though my open beer that was sitting on my life jacket in the floor of the canoe never even spilled. Somehow it stayed upright on the life jacket and I found it resting against the bank about 150 yards downstream. The beer gods were apparently looking out for me but the canoe gods were not amused.

Anyway, I was just looking into the boats mentioned above because I was mostly interested in not spending a ton of money on our first boat. I would hate to spend $1000 and then destroy the thing by summer's end. Oh yeah, and my wife says I'm cheap as hell, go figure.

Several of you recommended boats and I do appreciate that. But I can't find any of them for sale that are used. I've looked on this message board with no luck. If anybody hears about any please shoot me a pm or give me a call at 479-857-4538. Feel free to let me know of any group outings. It would be nice to have some company out there. Plus it would be nice to have someone to tell us what we did wrong after we get the water out of our boat.

Daniel

[d_razorback]

Okay so I talked with the folks at Byrd's Adventure Center and they said they have a bunch of used Old Town canoes for sale. So I'm going to go over there soon and buy one from them. They seem like really nice, trustworthy folks so hopefully I won't come home with a big turd. I don't know anything about brands but everybody here seems to be big on Old Town canoes. I guess I'll find out soon. See you guys out there!

Daniel

[Karla]

Don't forget the safety gear, pfd(life vest) and helmet (to protect the head) even in a canoe. As you mentioned she hit her head on the canoe going over. If you have anyway that someone could stay with your kids for that weekend of the rec school, it is a very good learning experience to be prepared for the water and moving water especially.

Karla

[Charlie Ford]

Before I bought my kayak I rented canoes at Byrd's. They always seemed to be good quality boats. Tandem canoes with begginers in them especially a married couple like yourselves are often referred to as divorce boats, but it sounds like ya'll have already experienced something like that so have fun. I often paddle the lower piney when it's flowing so I hope I'll see ya'll out there.
Charlie

[d_razorback]

It's funny you would say tandems are sometimes called 'divorce boats' because we did argue the two times we flipped. We both know we have to get the instruction and put some time in on the creek and it will get better. I think the arguments were more because I was tense the whole time because she has no experience at all and she can be a little uncoordinated. I was just wanting to make sure she didn't hurt herself. We're going to take an on-creek instruction session sometime in the next couple weeks with the people from Moore Outdoors. Then when we get our boat we'll take the same stretch of creek until we get more comfortable with our strokes before we move on to other stretches of the creek. This seems smart but what do I know?

We did consider going to the rec school but I just can't expect someone to watch my 3 year old and 2 year old for the whole weekend. Plus neither one of us wants to be away from them for that long. Mabye we can hook up with some of you more experienced folks sometime too. We can hang back behind and watch how everybody else approaches things before we go through them. As we progress I'll check back with you guys and let you know how things are going.

Feel free to give any more tips or advice. Later.

Daniel

[Crane]

So, go to Rec School and camp. One parent stays with the kids while the other takes the lessons & takes the kids when the class gets off the river. One parent gets a neat weekend in a good campground, one gets info, both get to know and visit with other paddlers. Win, win, win. What's the problem?

[d_razorback]

There is no problem with that. That isn't a terrible idea but why would I wanna do that when I can get a training session with the people at Moore Outdoors? It's close to home, where I'll be floating most of the time anyway, and we can do it together. I think I'll take the training session from the people at Moore's and if we still need it maybe plan to do the rec school next year. Thanks for the input though.

[Cowper]

Byrds, Moores, and other outfitters are generally great sources for finding used canoes that are a notch up (or several notches) on the scale from some of the low cost "entry" boats you mentioned. The boats are used hard in rental service, but typically the companies will sell them before they get trashed because they can't stay in business renting trashed out equipment. In private service, that well used boat typically still has many years, if not decades of life left.

If you want the pleasure of putting those first scratches on yourself, then look at they types of boats being used by the rental companies, then buy something similar new. Two sources to consider are Buffalo Canoes (made in Jasper,AR by the owners of Gordons motel, no, I'm not kidding) and Mohawk Canoes, made in Fort Smith AR. These boats would be like the Kia's of cars. Maybe not quite up there with Cadillac or Mercedes or Lexus, but a darn fine product that gets the job done. (Don't get a Yugo.)

A point in favor of either boat is you're keeping the business and $$$ right here in Arkansas.

A point in favor of the Buffalo Canoes is that they are based on the old "Blue Hole Canoe" design - its actually the same mold. This was a major milestone in the history of WW canoeing.

A point in favor of the Mohawk Canoes is that they are incorporated in another state. What does that mean to you? It means you can pick your boat up at their Fort Smith factory, no shipping, no sales tax. The price you see posted on the internet is the price you pay.

[Crane]

Though a training session from the great folks at Moore's will go a long way, (and they are friends and do a fine job!), it simply will not be as in-depth and probably as effective a training as you would get with a full-weekend school. Even the full-day flat-water class held most August's would add... substantially. But, the goal is to get all the best training you can afford the time and cost of taking... Your family's days on the river will be safer and more fun because of it... particularly if you intend to paddle tandem!!

[Eztouche]

Many of the people who are on these boards have been paddling canoes and kayaks for 30 + years. ( and some of these people have replied to your question) Arkansas has some of the best paddlers in the country.
Additionally, many are American Canoe Association certified instructors. Canoeing is safe... IF you learn the skills and safety procedures. It is worthwhile to do it right from the outset and not cut corners on the training.

[Richard]

A point in favor of the Mohawk Canoes is that they are incorporated in another state. What does that mean to you? It means you can pick your boat up at their Fort Smith factory, no shipping, no sales tax. The price you see posted on the internet is the price you pay.

Picking up a boat in Ft Smith makes it a taxable Arkansas sale. If they are not charging sales tax, they soon will be.