Whoop & Holler Access

[Byrds Adventures]

Attention Paddlers,
Please tell your friends that park and play access to Whoop & Holler will be permanently closed unless all vehicles register at Byrd's main office before parking or loading/ unloading boats. Signs are clearly posted. Again, you must register at Byrd's before entering the private road at Whispering Pines. This is the final notice--please help keep this access open.

[Cowper]

All? I feel your pain, and it really sucks that a few people are putting this at risk, but if the criterion is "all", then just close it now.

There's always going to be one deadbeat, or one person who is truly innocent and oblivious to the signs, or one person running to catch it before dark who will gladly pay double the next time around.

Please consider some other alternatives, like raising the price to cover the losses, or a pay scale that says "$25; $20 discount if paid in advance", or use of a game camera to help identify offenders. The "honest folks" will help you get this under control as you have requested, I just fear we'll never achieve the perfection of "all".

It's your property and you have every right to close it if that is your decision, I'm just begging you to look for an option that doesn't cause you the loss of this revenue, and us the loss of a great access point!

[Roger]

Season pass for that spot only? AS Cowper says, ALWAYS going to be one who thinks they don't have to pay.

[Dale Dailey]

Being that it is my after work surf spot i wish boaters wouldn't recommend raising prices. I am 30 bucks in already this season. Unless those signs have be put up in the last week there is nothing but an old no tresspassing sign at the parking area. I am not telling you how to run you're property, but i have never seen you spot check the parking area and you don't ask what people are driving when they pay you. How do you know who has paid and who has not. I don't want to see this spot closed more than most , but if you depend on a totally honest customers to run that part of you're bussiness for you? well, like cowper said you are not going to be happy with the results.

[Byrds Adventures]

You're right guys--and your consideration for all involved parties is appreciated. When we opened Whoop & Holler on a trial basis in 2004, our assumption was that folks would respect a few rules and happily pay the nominal fee to enjoy a really cool spot.

Since most paddlers would never steal from their grocer or service providers, we felt we could trust the community to understand "access" is our commodity. After all, we pay a monthly mortgage plus other expenses for this land just like any other store or shop. Unfortunately, many folks don't understand.

The problem is not limited to paddlers. The situation is similar for business owners who must charge a small parking fee to provide climbing on their premises. Again land use is the commodity and the owner must find ways to cover the costs of mortgages, upkeep, insurance, etc.

As much as we would like to provide free access and free services to our beloved outdoor community (and I really wish we could!), it's simply not possible at this time. I hope this makes sense of the situation. We'll do everything we can to keep this area open to those who care.

Thanks again for your efforts.

[Prairie Tater]

I think the only solution here is for paddlers to be honest enough to drive over to the office and pay. And if they discover that someone hasn't done this, they need to let the driver know. I'm sure that Byrd's does not have the manpower to go and check every license plate to make sure everyone has paid that day. As they are running shuttles, they probably just drive by and see about 30 rigs in the parking lot, then get back to the office to see they've only recieved $60 in fees! I would be upset, too.

I'm sure that some folks are thinking, "Well, I'm just going to be here long enough to load/unload my boat. My shuttle bunny will pick me up/drop me off, so we're really not parking here." Come on, man, just go and pay the three bucks!

Prater

[Dale Dailey]

Price is now $5 Tater. just so you know.

[Cowper]

Being that it is my after work surf spot i wish boaters wouldn't recommend raising prices....

Dale, forgive me, I was speaking in a moment of desparation, as so far the only alternative to 100% compliance was complete closure!

I know that we can improve on the compliance issue, but like I said, statistically speaking, we're never going to get 100% at a remote site with an open gate. We might get 100% of ACC members, 100% of those who read this board, or 100% of some other "group", but, there will be someone who slip past our efforts at education, or has some logic by which they feel they are "special" and the rules don't apply to them.

I'm just hoping Byrd's can find another solution. A locked gate, with annual fees to "regulars" like yourself, and "one time" key rentals to Joes like me who only get to see this one once or twice a year, might work. Tickets purchased in advance and dropped in a lockbox, so that you can purchase several tickets with one stop at the Adventure Center, might help. I'm sure we could even get volunteers to help build a gate, if Byrd's can figure a way to control the keys or change the combination on a regular basis. My real message is that any solution that keeps the access open is better than closing entirely.

[JBradley]

I've always wondered if people who charge for "land access" claim it on their taxes as revenue?

[super ez]

I would like to thank Byrd's. Since 2004, I have really appreciated being able to park at W and H. For me, it is a great park and play place after work.

I left my fee pinned near the door on the honor system, because I valued the access !

Thanks again to Byrd's !

[Fish]

Sorry I haven't weighed in on this sooner, but I've been away from my PC for a while.

First, ACC Board voted to help put up better signage at this access to let folks know they must pay for access at Whoop-N-Holler. That's going to help a lot. In the past, there's been a lot of folks just legitimately confused about it who haven't paid. We're going to try to eliminate that completely. With the signs, if you're there and you haven't paid, everyone's going to assume you're trying to stiff the owners and probably get the access closed for us all.

Second, cars that pay have tags in the windows. Obviously there are some who aren't paying and don't have tags. Boaters who value the access, need to get after those who aren't paying. Peer pressure will help a lot - and with the signs, there will be no chance that folks just didn't know to pay.

Third, arguing about 100% compliance being unrealistic is a bit anal, don't you think? Seems to me that the Byrds probably realize that a few goobers always slip through the cracks. To imply otherwise might be insulting to them, which could be hurting when we need to be helping. They no doubt do want to see that folks just aren't trying to skip out on fees, which are their income as an outfitter.

So, ACC as an organization is putting our money where out mouth is to try to get some signs and spread the word. If the paddling community can realize they've got a huge asset in the Byrds providing the Whoop-N-Holler access and helping make sure their fees get paid, then this can work for paddlers and the landowners. But if enough paddlers just want to act like they own the place or act indignant about being charged a fee for access to land they have no right to be on otherwise, then we're bound to lose the best access point to the best playspot on the most consistently running river in North Arkansas.

The choice is ours. I sure thank the Byrds for opening it in the first place, and I'll do what I can to help them keep it open in the future.

- Fish

[Byrds Adventures]

We can't speak for other landowners, but the answer at Byrd's is yes, we ring these fees through our register and pay taxes on the revenue. We also pay additional tourism taxes on many of our services. It's a business like any other with ever-increasing overhead like any other.

There are many private landowners surrounding Whoop & Holler who would be affected by a gate and key arrangement. Likewise, we do not have the resources to perpetually monitor the site. (The idea of driving by on a shuttle to see a bunch of vehicles parked there is correct, with the exception that often only one--or none--of them are registered.) Dashboard-visible proof of registration has been our policy at Whoop & Holler since the first day (and we are grateful to those who honor the system ).

We bring this to the ACC board because it’s the only place we ever published information about opening the access. We’re willing to keep working on this, but we need your help.

Edit: Thanks Fish--you nailed it.

[Dale Dailey]

If dash board slips are you're policy. Then why are you not giving them out? I have never been given any proof of paying and you claim it is signed which it is not. The ACC should'nt have to purchase signs for you're bussiness.
just my personel thoughts.

[ebell]

I have paid for and used the whoop and holler access numerous times in the last few months and each time I was given a bright piece of paper with the date that I had paid for access written on it. I will say that everytime I have been there I have seen vehicles without the paper on their dash. Hopefully everyone with do the right thing and the few won't ruin it for the many.

eric

[Cowper]

Third, arguing about 100% compliance being unrealistic is a bit anal, don't you think? Seems to me that the Byrds probably realize that a few goobers always slip through the cracks. To imply otherwise might be insulting to them....

The Byrds should not take insult by this. Where I work, "all" means "all", and "all" = 100%. We even have specialized training on the topic, complete with statistics on the number of deaths that would occur each year if less than perfection was considered acceptable in various professions. So this definition may be considered anal in some circles, but it's an occupational hazard for me. Thanks for translating a kinder, gentler definition of the word "all". If that's the meaning, we have a success path.