size does matter?

[painterbob]

when trying a kayak out ,do you want to be at the low end ,middle, or high end of the weight scale ... and does it make a difference with a creekboat to a river runner ?... any help here! .. seems i jumped in a little over my head on a boat that i have. so now i have to make some kind of adjustment . (i never should have took that test ride in randy's boat).

[randominsects]

are you giving up on the zoom? i'd stick with that boat because its so easy to roll . are you going to get a kayak now?

Zach

[painterbob]

i hate you zach! ........ no, not really,..... but yes it's looking like the zoom might go! , or be traded off to a single blader!,I'm just not to sure of what i want

[okieboater]

Well Painter Bob, it is all relative.

Here is some thoughts and hopefully others like Cowper will jump in here.

I am not familiar with the rec boats so my comments are oriented to WW kayaks.

Most weight ranges are given in paddler body weight only. Which does not include all the extra stuff we carry.

Creek boaters generally carry a bunch of other stuff plus winter clothing so it is very easy to add weight that you do not think is there.

Important to look at total weight you will be paddling with.

Next weight ranges are suggestions. The only way to be sure is to paddle the boat with all the stuff you are likely to carry and see how the outfit paddles for your style of paddling. I try to be in the middle of the suggested weight range.

Next look at the edges, bottom, rails, chines what ever the bottom looks like.

Displacement boats generally have a smooth rounded edge, and I think are a bit easier to handle on edge. When you load this design up, the change is a bit more gradual. IE handling will change a bit more slowly. Flips can occur a bit slower with these rounded edges.

The new school (prolly old school by now) designs with flatter bottoms and sharp edges are easier to spot. Again my opinion, these designs tend to be really stable until you engage the edges, then flips can happen really fast. But properly handled, edges are a really good thing.

What you do get is a series of extra keels that boaters can really use to their advantage when carving a turn or performing a trick or special move. What the boater has to do is get used to these edges and determine just how much boat tilt engages specific edges. Some kayak designs have multiple edges.

I'm a big fan of the Pyrana Burn series. It is a combo design with a smaller flat surface and edges that are placed to make them a bit more user friendly to engage. Edges are a bit smoother to make handling cross currents a bit easier for the boater to handle side currents that would give stability problems.

Now we get into the load factor. Again my opinion subject to comments by the experts. These edges come into play at different load levels on any specific boat. So, if you are buying a kayak with sharp and or multiple edges, you want to be sure when you are setting in the kayak with your normal kit, the edges engage as the designer planned.

If you are a play boater, most will want short length, flatter spin areas, sharp edges that engage for different trick moves. I am not much of a play boater but keep looking at the Jackson Super Fun as a play boat I might buy if the Tulsa Wave gets back in shape this winter.

Most river runners will want a bit longer length, smoother edges and more user friendly cockpits. These designs will carve good turns and surf well. They get you down river. For me, being old school, my river runners are my RPM Max, Response, Chopper. The RPM Max has been my boat of choice all around since I bought it new in 96 I think was the year. My Chopper is the self contained kayak over nighter of choice, don't paddle it much except sometimes out west. My big water western river boat of choice is a Response. It is long and fast. Rolls easy. Drawback is a small cockpit, but I got mine way back when Dagger made them from cross link and mine still works great.

Creek boaters normally want something with more volume and blunt ends. There are creek boats mostly displacement like the Jackson Rockers. Most of the current creekers I have seen are more combo with a smaller flat spot and one or more edges that can be engaged as the boater edges the boat. I used to have a Embudo Creeker which worked well for me. I got the large Burn tho just after they came out and it is working really well for me.

I think the design is really what ever works for the boater.

In my opinion, the boaters ability to balance their kayak bow to stern and edge to edge is way more important than the design. That is why those of you that have been in clinics with me get a lot of drills on posture and paddling the boat on edge. If you can paddle a boat on the edge you are going to be a lot safer as you can carve lines, handle hole rides easier and handle cross currents by letting the water slide under your boat instead of catching an edge and you dealing with flip potential. If you have a nice hinged at the hips chest forward posture you are going to let the boat work for you going forward and handling head on current differentials. If you add in a nice loose hips to allow the boat to ride up on cross currents or the ability to balance on edge and carve into or out of eddies - things work really well for you.

Bottom line. Look at the boat you are interested in and determine how the bottom's edges are gonna work in your style of paddling. Take a test ride if possible. Follow the designers weight recommendations and I like to be in the middle of them (include all the stuff you paddle with when deciding on your weight).

As always, my opinion again, the paddler skill level is the most important factor in making any boat design work. Boaters can adapt more to the boat than the boat can adapt to the paddler. IE there are a lot of ACC boaters out there like Cowper or Lance that could take on difficult creek runs in a tiny hard edged play boat with no problem that would challenge me big time in my big, comfortable, user friendly Burn!

Then there is Horace Sheatt who can out paddle most of us kayakers even if he is on a log!

[RomanLA]

If you want a river runner, you should be lower in the weight range. If you want a play boat, you should be higher in the weight range. That just determines how close the chines are to engaging the water line. If you want a creek boat, you should be in something with high volume and indestructible. Your best bet is probably a river/play or river/creek hybrid, depending on what you're interested in doing. You'll eventually probably have a variety of boats for different occasions anyway.

[painterbob]

thanks you guys! i have made my self dizzy with all the googling i have done ..

[okieboater]

Hey Painter Bob, if you are looking for a really nice comfy river runner and sometimes creeker, take a look at Liquid Logic Remix 79.

I was Over at NOC a month or so ago with a bud. I tested the Jackson Super Fun and he tested the Remix 79.

Remix series has Awesome outfitting and a nice fast all around river runner / light creeker boat.

I did not paddle the Remix but did check it out pretty well. After my look see and the really good report by my Bud, if I was looking for a nice river runner all around kayak - it would be the Remix 79.

Chek the Remix out at the liquid logic web site.

[painterbob]

i was thinking like a wave sport diesel 65 or a pyranha stretch, the jackson fun ..... but i have been also looking a CU -FLY .... at the cardon i did a boat switch, with randy dodson and sat in his dagger aftershock.. talk about a sweet outfit job!! ... but when i got home i jumped on line and started looking ? but some paddle on the under side of the weight scale and some right at the top of it. thats when i posted to clear- up my understanding (still not sure) but didn't need a boat that won't work for me (have them already) with this group you need a day tripper, and a play boat . my paddling skills lack the fine tunning of a schooling. missed the first canoe school sign -up ,and didn't have a boat for the next classes, so i did what all newbie do, i just jumped in and was off paddling! you can't learn if you don't go... yes i'm from the hardhead oldschool ... and now here i sit, eager to learn it all! little by little

[okieboater]

If you want a WW kayak,
Do an over the hill kayaker a favor.

Go some where and give the Remix, Diesel, Burn, Mamba all sized correctly for you a good test drive, before you spend a bunch of money for a new boat.

Of the boats listed above, my bet is the Remix is gonna be a really good boat for you since it is gonna be a bit faster than the others.

That is if you want a river runner that is gonna surf and run the class III up to IV most run in AR.

My bet is you are more of a river runner right now than park and play. That's the reason for the list above.

I agree with you that for park and play you'll prolly want one of the short boats like the Fun series.

[Cowper]

I agree with much of what has already been said, so in order to add anything new of value I'll try to hit a couple of other points and not repeat any of the good stuff already said...

If you have good balance, and good bracing and rolling skills, then you can paddle a boat well even if you are near the top end of the weight range for that boat. On the other hand, if your brace is not yet instictive, then you may be better off getting a boat for which you are at the lower end of the recommended range, because it will be more stable.

While stability increases as you choose bigger boats, the down side is this: The bigger boat has more surface to react against the water. So if you are in a huge boat, the currents may tend to push you and your boat around more.