RIVER CAMPING 101- Ohhhhhhhhh Cr. . .

[Richard]

It just hit me what CB was saying. We go to all this effort not to polute the river then we flush it into the toilet thereby poluting water and then go to the expense of cleaning that water back to acceptable levels.

I think we are all on the same page in that we all want to do the right thing. In doing so we need to see the entire process and not fool ourselves into thinking we are doing good when we are only making it worse in the whole scheme of things. What we don't want to do is lock ourselves into one way of thinking and not be open to other environmentally friendlier options.

Cat holes may still be the best way in certain situations. For now at least, I am going with "carry it out" unless it is obvious there is a better way.

[Butch Crain]

...can't believe no one had discussed this subject in almost a week...

...must have finally made some prune juice runs.

[Richard]

Butch . . . I think the operative word is RAIN!
When the rain falls and the rivers rise, all thoughts turn elsewhere.

We at last are going to have a chance to put into practice what we are talking about.

[Richard]

Well, it took four weeks but it finally arrived. I now proudly possess Kathleen Meyer's ground breaking "how to" book. I have not finished reading but early on she talks about real life experiences and one of my own popped into mind. Something I had forgotten long ago.

When I was 13 Elvis Presley had just been on the Ed Sullivan Show and I lived in San Marcos, TX. The San Marcos river begins there. I had a friend who lived on the San Marcos River. His house was next the tracks on the the upriver side. Next to the tracks on the downriver side was a water park. I am sure he didn't do this every day but I was witness to it being done a few times. And he did it on a regular basis. Wes was also 13. He enjoyed making small paper boats and then depositing what he call his "little bundles of joy" in them and launching them at the peak of activity at the river park.

Fortunately, according to Meyer, this predated giardia in Amerca.

Back to her book. . . in reading it so far . . . I have not unearthed anything we did not already know.

[duckfool]

Came upon this little gem... cardboard isn't the most friendly medium for water-borne activities.. but still.. very interesting...

http://www.thebrowncorporation.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Richard]

Well, still no significant rain . . . so back to the standby.

I spent some time last weekend at Tyler Bend discussing this topic with the trip leader for Wilderness Volunteers. He says the western parks are pretty much going with Wag Bags. Last time I looked they were pretty pricey per use. I am still looking at cheaper alternatives. When possible I use public facilities. In the last few months I have used a lot of them. This morning, GRIST had an article about using public facilities . . . warnings and some alternatives . . . like the Stadium Pal. I don't think I am ready for that one.
Anyway,
http://www.grist.org/article/2010-10-14 ... eat-covers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You are right! WE DO NEED RAIN!

[Allen Rittman]

Hey Richard, I've got a groover and a wagbag toilet you are more than welcome to try. When I got back from my first western trip a few years ago I went and bought a wagbag to use when it is just me and the dogs or up to 3 or 4 people after that it becomes a problem. Plus with the bag system you have to keep buying bags. But it does work very well with 2 or 3 folks. Next time we go on an overnighter with a bunch of folks I'll take one of the groovers! I bought the groover for this last Middle Fork trip back in June.

[okieboater]

My opinion only, Wag bags sound a lot better than they work.

Number one, the stand on the ones I have used are not very sturdy. and, they wobble around. Very easy to tip over and get poop all over the place.

I have not had to deal with them as far as setup and take down and transport, but I do not feel comfortable in my canoe or raft with the security of a paper bag full of poop and other noxious gases.

A standard US of A Army rocket box when properly closed is bomb proof when you add the eco safe plastic container with proper closure you have two levels of protection from poop explosions.

When you buy a eco safe and rocket box that is it. A rocket box and eco safe will last a lifetime if properly taken care of. If you look around you can find free dump sites or many camp sites have clean up setups especially if there are RV's around. Otherwise, you do pay a clean out fee in many RV parks.

The gold standard of poop setups is set by the Grand Canyon Rangers. I do not think they accept wag bags on river trips. Most of the other rivers do not accept wag bags either or at least the last time I checked.

Don't get me wrong. When I was a kid, the BSA taught us to use "cat holes" and given the number of people hiking etc, they worked well. Cat holes do not work well at all out west and back east they are over used due to lots of people taking dumps or not doing a proper cat hole location or dig. Wag bags might work well for hikers on day or over night trips, I could see that.

For me, a rocket box and eco safe is the best way to take care of the rivers and camp sites we all love to enjoy. Given they are heavy and a pain to transport. But, setting securely on a rocket box eco safe setup is a great way to take care of your business on a river trip and other than a compression of the dirt where the rocket box is located, leaves no trace. Or very little trace

[GutIt]

A differing opinion only. No offense to anyone because after all, we are all trying to accomplish the same goal here.

But Wag Bags work just fine and to give the impression that they don’t is misleading. I have been using them as my primary groover system for years and never had a bag blow. I have seen more rocket boxes tipped than I have ever seen a Wag blow (which is exactly none). And I have never tipped my Pett 3-legger. You simply bleed the air from the bags before sealing it. Job done. You tip an open rocket box over and you have way more than a “paper bag full of poop” to deal with (and they are not paper). As far as noxious fumes are concerned, I have never seen a groover of any kind that does not emit some. They have to be “burped” or they have a purge.

I have tossed Wags in a trash bag and carried them for days and if I have a doubt, I can always toss them into a 2 or 5 gal bucket with lid. Which, by the way, can also serve as your “toilet” (5-gal is better) with an appropriate seat.

Each system has its advantages and disadvantages, but the main advantage of both is that if used will eliminate the problem and that’s the goal. Yes, Eco’s may be better for an extended group trip. But who wants to carry it and dump it for just 2-4 days? Very few, which is why you don't see them so often on our local venues. Enter- Wag Bags. I can use a Wag system AND shack with less weight and space than a tank-type system and have used them for up to five day runs for 2-4 people with me being the only supplier and carrier of the bags. If everyone brings enough to cover themselves or a couple, carries their own then you have no worries. In fact, last summer I was on an extended run out West where we used both systems. Everyone had bags if needed during the day or for emergencies, and tank-type for general group campside use.

As far as the Grand Canyon? Any run that is okay with a PVC pipe and lid I would hardly consider a “gold standard”. That they require “something” or in this case “anything” I would consider a “gold standard”. And as mentioned, Wags are rapidly becoming the “gold standard”. The reason for this is because the general public is more likely to use them than invest in a tank groover that may or may not get much future use. It only makes sense.

Personal preference is one thing. And if you are prone to carry a full on tank-type groover system in your solo canoe, I say go for it. If that doesn’t sound good to you, then by all means use the Wags. They are safe, easy, convenient, and work just fine. But definitely use one or the other. If you are on a 15 person multi-day then I would say buy, borrow, or rent a tanker and have a few spare Wags on hand.

Catholes are passé with the volume of traffic and amount of that traffic that won’t even use them. As evidenced by the amount of landmines. They don’t work anymore on a number of levels.

If it were up to me, I would spend as much manpower requiring and checking waste management systems as I did checking for glass, koozies, lashed coolers, drunken behavior, posting roadblocks at accesses and actually on the water, and whatever else. To me they are all one in the same.

And yes, #1 should go in the swim

[okieboater]

Terry,

I appreciate your feed back and opinions on Wag Bags versus the Rocket Box and Eco Safe units.

A good discussion brings out the good or less good points from both sides and is encouraged.

I think the main thing is to get rid of river poop in some sort of approved method that keeps it out of the river and camp sites.

Different approaches but both work and that is the main thing.

I will stand by my opinion tho that the Grand Canyon requirements are the gold standard for river poop disposal. The fact that requirements for kayak self support is different from the raft support systems is an attempt by the Rangers to support raft and kayak trips on the GC. I am not sure of the actual counts but my guess is very very few kayak self support GC trips are made down the GC in any given year.

I agree with you on the open rocket box "groover" setup. I use and encourage the use of the rocket box with eco safe insert. And, I have never seen a rocket box with eco safe insert tip over and spill. But, there is that possibility just as there is the possibility of tip over and spill with the wag bag stand.

Dave

[robkanraft]

I'm an Eco-Safe tanker advocate but I'm open to possibilities. I concur tanks are big and a lot of work for short trips. Our last short trip was an orange home depot bucket and a snap lid. Stupid question, on a group trip, when you use the wag does everyone get a fresh bag each use or use it till it's full? And when full, do you collectively bucket them or each party carry their own?

Information only: last time I looked at regs for Green River Lodore and Deso Canyons, Wags were specifically mentioned as not acceptable. That could have changed. No permit for the last three years.

[GutIt]

Rob,

I use the bags from anywhere from 3-5 uses depending. You don’t want to overfill them, but you can get more than one use from them. But, once the bag has been sealed, regardless of having been used once or four times, I won’t reopen it and use it again unless I am on a solo trip. I just use a fresh one.

The Group I generally boat with the most all use Wags. Each couple or family have their own preferences. Some use buckets in conjunction with the bags, and some, like myself, use the Pett toilet. I bought it years ago pretty cheap. If I were buying today, I would probably just use a bucket. Works for storage as well as seating. If you were to see this Group’s campsite, what you would see is everyone’s tents spread out all over the gravel bar with their groover shack out back of their tent. Very convenient. Each couple or family likes to be responsible for their own waste management. Now keep in mind this is for local runs that we do many times a year, which is my immediate concern on this thread. Not the Grand Canyon, or any other canyon that we go out and do once or twice a year if that.

Just about three weeks ago, my wife and I hosted our annual Season Finale which is primarily a float for kids and their parents. All of the usual “group” brought their own waste management. I provided WM for everyone else. It was an overnight "car camp", but there were close to 40 people in attendance. To my way of thinking it is vitally important that the kids be educated on this and from the git-go. I kept an eye on the deployed bags, and kept them changed out and stored as needed. I then took care of disposal after the run (Well, I would have, but one of the usual “Group” volunteered to do this since I supplied the system at my own expense. That is the stellar character of these people!). To use WM on one of our trips is absolutely mandatory- no exceptions. If you don’t have one, then one will be provided. If you don’t use it, you will not be invited back. I only have one rule on my hosted floats and this is it. Further, you can rest assured that if I am lucky enough to be invited on someone else’s hosted run, I will have a waste management system with me and enough spare bags to cover the group on a ‘nighter. Ironically, the last float I took that featured mostly ACC members and guests, I had one of only two WM systems out of well over a dozen people. I had enough bags to cover everyone, but only a few took advantage of that fact. Probably a half and half ratio. I was somewhat less than impressed. But to answer more of your question, Rob, I carried the bags for those that used them. And was glad to do it.

Dave, as always, I enjoy reading your posts and have a great deal of respect for your expertise. You are absolutely right on about using Waste Management here at home and well said.

If the Grand Canyon is the gold standard for waste management hardware, then the fact that they and most everywhere else out west require Waste Management of some form is the platinum standard. We need to rise to the platinum standard here at home.

My friends from out west come back here to boat and are absolutely mortified to find that we don’t have groover requirements. To have them go home and most remember the land mines and not the natural beauty of our runs does not bode well with me. I see it every year. They never see it except here.

To me, using a groover is way easier than anything else anyway. It can be conveniently located with a shack, and you can even stay dry in the rain!

Win-win!

[Lupe]

I concur with Terry that the "wag bag" system will work very well for small groups on short trips which is what we are primarily talking about here. After following this thread and listening to discussions last year, I went ahead and tried it out on a couple multi-day trips on the Buffalo earlier this year, and I think it's a great solution. I used just a 3.5 gallon bucket with a gamma seal lid both for carrying/storage and as the toilet itself. For my short trips, that was plenty for both used/unused bags, plus a zip lock with TP and hand sanitizer. Carry the bucket into the woods to a private spot and do your business. It call can be carried out very easily.

Buying the bags in bulk is less than $3 per bag. You can't stay in a campground with toilet facilities for less than $3 a night, so I think it's still pretty economical, and I'd rather pay $3 a day and be on the river than stay in the campground!

I think the vast majority of recreational users would not consider a groover system that needs to be cleaned out, while the bag system could really get adopted for far greater use, so I think it's a much more realistic if we want to start encouraging more folks to "pack it out."

Plus, the park system or outfitters could for a very low cost have buckets with gamma seal lids available for rent/purchase along with bags available for purchase. I could definitely see such a system getting used by many more folks.

[okieboater]

http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/n ... v-docs.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Above URL takes you to the National Parks Service private boater info page
which has a lot of good information on boating in the Grand Canyon. Most river runners I have talked to agree that if your trip meets the GC regulations, you can meet most all the permitted western river regulations with your gear.

go down to the center of the page and click on the regulations line and it will give you a pdf of basic river use regulations. Which includes several sections on human waste containment systems. Lots of other good stuff on how to run multi day river trips.

The GC Rangers want a reusable groover system . For what it is worth, I have been told they want the groover system to be expensive enough so the average river user would not just fill the containers up and throw them away.

Granted the GC regs may not apply to all rivers or all federal recreational lands. But, they are widely used as a standard by many if not most federal agencies. I have been blessed to make two trips down the GC and in both cases every camp site we stayed at was pristine. So the Rangers are doing a good job as well as the river runners.

While my personal experience with Wag Bags has not been all that good, based on the feedback on this thread I feel there are situations where the Wag Bag setup works well.

I still feel strongly that for the raft supported multi day river trips with larger groups either the rocket box with eco safe liners or the Partner Steel system is the best way to go in order to get the waste off the river.

Bottom line tho is for most trips of a few people or few days, looks to me like a Wag Bag is a good solution. Where is the best place to buy Wag Bags? I am game to give em a try and the bucket to sit on sounds like a better setup than the Wag Bag stands I have seen.

[GutIt]

Good link, Dave.

Pulled this out of the .pdf:

For day hikes and when the river trip is in progress between camps, trips may as an alternative use toilet systems of the type that use dry chemical/enzymes to render solid human waste into nonhazardous products acceptable for disposal in permitted landfills. (Products currently known to meet this criteria and render solid human waste into nonhazardous products include the PETT System from Phillips Environmental Products, Inc and the Restop 2 from American Innotek, Inc.)

And:

Used PETT/Wag Bags must be placed in the trash and that trash MUST be stored in a waterproof container like a 20 MM ammo can.

So essentially, Wags are accepted on the Grand Canyon in at least a limited capacity. Interesting. This is exactly the same procedure I described for our last multi-day large group excursion. At any rate, I don’t think that I would want to deal with Wags for 16 people for two weeks as a primary waste management strategy anyway!

But this is comparing apples and oranges. We don’t have any local runs of the scale of the Grand. My immediate concern is my own backyard.

Dave, I just go up to Bass Pro and purchase bags there. They come in a box of a dozen and I think I paid around $3 apiece or somewhere around $36 for the box. Might be able to get a better deal online somewhere.