The knees of an open boater...

[Prairie Tater]

After 62 years of abuse, I just had my second arthroscopic knee surgery (meniscectomy). The meniscus was torn in two places. Also, arthritis has set in under my kneecap. This is my left knee. I had a similar problem with my right one about 13 years ago. The surgeon basically said that things wouldn't get any better for my knees, and as long as I continue to sit in a kneeling position, I can expect more problems. He did recommend taking glucosamine which I intend to do.

I guess the reason I'm posting this, other than the fact that I have nothing else to do while I'm recovering with my hydrocodone , is to let those of you who know me know that you probably will not be seeing me in a WW canoe in the future. Its hard to say right now, but I know my open boating days are going to be very limited. But I do want everyone to know that it has all been worth it. I do not regret putting my knees through this. I love the sport. Navigating a class III stream with a single blade is one of the most fulfilling things I have ever done. More paddlers should try it.

I'm also just curious if anyone else here is going through the same thing or something similar.

Terry Prater

[Tim Eubanks]

Terry
Sad news indeed. Glad to have followed you down a creek or two. Also saw you on the Upper Arkansas a few years back. I have not had those kinds of issues but you've been solo boating much longer. Only about 12 years for me now.
Sold my solo canoe this spring after enduring more pain than I cared to last time I paddled.

Do like some those open boaters we know who are up in years and their knees are shot: get a raft. You can have a blast rowing a 12' or smaller raft on all those creeks you love to canoe. R2ing is a blast as well.

Get well soonly.

[Prairie Tater]

Hi Tim. Yes, I have a 12' raft, but I need a frame & oars for it. I'll probably try to find them in the near future. I didn't state this in the earlier post, but I'm retiring at the end of this year. Looking to spend a big portion of next summer in CO. Hope to see you there!

It will be very difficult for me to let go of my fleet of OC's.

Terry

[Tim Eubanks]

Retiring! Super. CO also super. Yep, I'd love to get back out there.
There' a pretty good market for certain OC's. I bought a new frame for my Puma with proceeds of boat sale.

[prophet]

might be too late but maybe a higher saddle? have a "normal" store bought one and a homemade job, a few extra inches helps a lot (joke opening!)
a SOAR inflatable also might be an option, you can sit up on a normal type canoe seat and drop down to kneeling in rapids. Wouldnt need to kneel much in Cl II

[Prairie Tater]

Dang, Prophet! I'm already at around nine inches.

Inflatable?...maybe.

[prophet]

not to brag but i'm a couple inches more,
i cant tell any difference in stability, really does help on the knees.

the SOAR is easier to deal with than a raft, love not bailing but surfing/small eddy's aren't its strong suit

[Sparky]

OK Terry,

I've been paddling OC the last 10 years on total hip replacements. All the while easing into rafting. Started with a 10' SOTAR and added 13' SOTAR for the MFSalmon a couple years ago…R2. Jeannie's been paddling a ducky for a decade when I paddle my WWOC. I'm lucky if I get 5 days year in the OC 1. Jeannie finally bought a ducky I like, lots of options for a guy like you. I now eat crow for all the evil things I've said about inflatables in my younger days. Oaring is next on my list. You're welcome to borrow one of our duckies if you're ever in the mood. I too have celebrated my 62nd. It's been too long since we've been on the river together.

Brent

[Prairie Tater]

Yes, Brent. I remember your hip replacement. It might have actually been better if they had totally replaced my knee. I hear of a lot of success stories with that. I think the key for me at this point will be to pay close attention to how the knees are feeling. I hope to be able to handle short runs of about 5 miles or so. No 43 mile Hailstone runs!!! And I'll probably need at least a couple of days in between and frequent breaks to get out and stretch.

I also still have a couple of kayaks if I get too desperate.

Brent, starting in January, I'll have a very flexible schedule, so there should be plenty of time to get together. I should be able to paddle something by then.

Terry

[Larry Pearce]

I am 67 and have been open boating for over 25 years. I am sympathetic to all open boaters with knee pain, and envious of those who can still paddle without pain. I have tried several things that have helped. Most of my saddles are 11 or 12 inches high (modified like Grant's), and I carry a 2 inch block of mini cell that I push under the lacing of the front air bad and add to the pedestal height when the rapids aren't demanding. I have most boats outfitted with Mohawk's thigh retainer system. Before the pain gets too bad, I will release the thigh retainer, push it in front of the pedestal and go into a high kneel position with one leg (usually paddling side) forward. I have found that I can maneuver most Class II rapids in that position, but I will not catch micro eddies, am not especially good at eddying out on my off side and am at more risk of falling out if I hit a rock while pointed in some direction other than downstream.

Several years ago on a 7 or 8 day river trip, I took a Cox 2 inhibitor medication each day and did really well. I don't advise that tactic for extended trips because of the potential increased risk for cardiovascular side effects. But for a trip of a few hours taking 3 or 4 ibuprofen or a couple of Anaprox can make a significant difference for me. I also don't recommend using those drugs on a regular basis or if you have any kidney insufficiency.

I captained a 3 man raft on the Green last summer from the rear thwart with a seat that gave me a lot of back support. It was a very comfortable river trip, and I would do it again in a heartbeat. But it wasn't the same experience as paddling an OC. Some of my friends think I have lost my mind, but for almost 2 years now the best option I have found to paddling an OC is an inflatable stand up paddle board (SUP). I can paddle one of those on a Class II river and have a Class III experience with no knee pain--provided I am properly padded up for those falls when I miss the board and end up in the river. I do look a little like a Ninja with elbow pads, knee and shin pads and field hockey padded shorts. I have hurt some other parts doing SUP, but I have not hurt my knees. Attached is a photo from this year's Jungle Boater Race on the Mulberry. I can't believe how much fun it is to go down a river on a paddle board. Larry

[okieboater]

For what it is worth, I took a look at the inflatable kayaks also known as Duckies. SOAR is one of the good news designs on the Inflatable market. SOAR's come in many sizes from solo performance to big freight haulers.

Back in my squirt boat days, the Snyder Brothers were a couple of my heros (Jim is still making paddles and designing boats and boats a IK down the West VA gnar) as far as running difficult rapids in small boats.

Jim boats an IK called the ThrillSeeker. Runs all sorts of creeky runs including waterfalls.

So I called up Attila (his real name) and asked some questions about his designs.

I ended up with a ThrillSeeker inflatable kayak. Each is made to the owners specifications, so there is a wait time.

So far the boat has amazed me. Does not have the carving ability of a hard shell kayak but the performance is pretty close. Catching eddies is a bit more demanding for me. Ferry moves and peel outs easier than I expected. And, the boat does front surf pretty well.

So far I have loaded it up with gear for a over night trip on Rio Chama and it did an excellent job. Used it on several of the easier runs on the ARK and Pilar runs. Heading back to the ARK to do some low water creeking there. According to Jim Snyder, low water creek runs is where the ThrillSeeker shines. I will find out.

SOAR and ThrillSeeker are not your average duckie and not cheap but their performance justifies the cost.

Bottom line is, even with legs whose knees do not work as well as they used to, the new crop of Duckies offer a comfortable ride and excellent performance. Single bladers will have to use a double blade in the ThrillSeekers or can use either style paddle in a smaller SOAR. Either design offers comfort and more performance than most think possible. Both designs deserve a test drive.

[arkansas-santa1]

Terry I'm sorry to hear I'm not the only one having this issue. I to am a aging open boater. I've been paddling C1 and OC1 since 1980. I've had the same surgery on one of my knees.

This is what I do:
30 minutes before I put on I take 3 Advils . And this year I started using ZIM'S MAX-FREEZE. This stuff has helped loosen my knees up faster. Also I added 2" to my saddle and I have a "tall" back to my saddle so I can get off my knees in the pools. It also helps that I have some GREAT friends that I paddle with that don't mind waiting on me while I take knee breaks. Hang in there Buddy there isn't a reason not to get out on the water.

Keep up your rehab, that is something us old folks will do for the rest of our lives. But I think it is worth the pain to be able to get out on the water. :myday"

Jerry

[Prairie Tater]

Thanks, Jerry...never heard of Zim's Max Freeze. I'll have to check it out.

Saddle height: I think the point that the surgeon was trying to make to me was that ANY kneeling position would be detrimental to the health of my knees. Whether my butt is 8" off the floor or 12" off the floor, I'm still putting undue stress on my knees. I used to have one of the old poly-molded Perception saddles. The thing weighed a ton, but it was nice to be able to perch myself up on that seat once in a while...should have kept it.

[Deuce]

Terry, Perception saddles are widely available for the axing if you know whom to ax.

[T Yamashita]

Sorry to hear about your knees. I hope you'll get on the rivers with something acceptable. See you on the creek soon!
ty