Who has gotten Litter Law tickets in 2013?

[Deuce]

I don't know, Michael. In my mind that's not really a solution but is actually enabling the ignorance. If we don't stand up and say something how will the right people know there's a problem? I just hung up with Major Callaway in Enforcement. He was very apologetic and promised to call the head of the division that was out there Saturday himself. He also promised to take steps to ensure all officers know the correct version of the law. He seemed particularly troubled when I described my interaction with the intern (I guess that's what they were?). Henceforth I'll be carrying my handy dandy laminated copy, but here's hoping I never need it.

[737driver]

Nice work Luke!

[Cowper]

Twindad - probably not. While you might not swim, it would be too easy to get a photo of some kayaker swimming, so that might be a tough sell in court. BUT - if you have no foodstuff or beverages, you don't need a trash container. That is what should protect you during park-and-play - just don't carry stuff loose in your boat.

Webber is already gearing up to print a batch of laminated copies of the law. We plan to make them available to:
1) ACC members who want one
2) AGFC stream team leaders and/or LEO's (intent is to share in a non-confrontational way BEFORE we're standing on the bank arguing about what the law does or doesn't say)

Thanks for those who are already reaching out. I feel we really need to get on the same side of this issue with AGFC, and it sounds like we're headed in that direction. We both want the same things. And we want them to spend their time on the folks who are doing the littering, sinking bottles, and trashing our rivers, not wasting it talking to us about the relative merits of mesh bags vs. sturdy containers. If we wait to resolve it on the river by waving around a copy of the law on the river bank, even if we avoid an unjust ticket, we have not achieved the best possible outcome.

[maggiepowell]

ARe there signs posted at Remmell that explain the law to paddlers. Not that everyone would read them but then if they got a ticket there would be no excuse for not having their trash securely bagged.

Maggie

[Lupe]

This is a side tangent, so perhaps should be a new thread, but a few of us were chatting about ideas about what to do about all the trash that gets dumped at Rockport as tubers and boaters go over the ledge. Many of us playing there try to round up the floating trash and nicely encourage those who have become separated from their trash to take an interest in picking it up. Sometimes they do if we're trying to help them collect their stuff they then also make an effort. Other times they are too drunk or just don't care and won't take their trash even if you pick it up for them to get it back into their boat. But one thing that really doesn't help is how few trash receptacles there actually are at Rockport. The few there are usually overflowing. I had noticed on a trip on the Current River that at one of the major take outs they had large dumpster containers right there. I wonder if we couldn't lobby Malvern to have some dumpters located at the top of the ramp (or are there concerns about it being used for illegal dumping?) It would be even cooler if we could get some recycling bins up there so maybe folks could do trash vs. recycling, kind of like they have along the Nantahala river. I also wonder if it would do any good at all if we had some large high quality signs made for down by the river that said something like "This is your river...help keep it clean...please collect your litter!" Or is it naive to think that if someone doesn't care about letting their trash float on away that anything will make a difference? Finally, since so many folks stop at the island up above the ledge, maybe that actually would be the location for a sign. WARNING: LEDGE AHEAD! PREPARE NOW SO THAT ALL YOUR BELONGINGS ARE SECURED SO THAT YOU WILL NOT LITTER! I wonder if it would be possible to permanently anchor a sign out there that wouldn't get swept away by high water?

I might be wrong, but I also feel it would make a much bigger difference if AGFC could actually ticket folks AS THEY ARE LITTERING at the ledge. If someone gets a ticket up above on the smooth flatwater, they probably end up thinking they are being harassed for no good reason and don't really learn anything. But if they got a ticket after actually dumping all their trash at the ledge, particularly if they clearly make NO EFFORT to pick any of it up, then to me that would make a bigger impact.

If this AGFC enforcement was happening on Saturday somewhere up above the ledge, all I know is there was ZERO evidence of changed behavior as of Sunday, that's for sure.

[Deuce]

Twindad - probably not. While you might not swim, it would be too easy to get a photo of some kayaker swimming, so that might be a tough sell in court. BUT - if you have no foodstuff or beverages, you don't need a trash container. That is what should protect you during park-and-play - just don't carry stuff loose in your boat.

Webber is already gearing up to print a batch of laminated copies of the law. We plan to make them available to:
1) ACC members who want one
2) AGFC stream team leaders and/or LEO's (intent is to share in a non-confrontational way BEFORE we're standing on the bank arguing about what the law does or doesn't say)

Thanks for those who are already reaching out. I feel we really need to get on the same side of this issue with AGFC, and it sounds like we're headed in that direction. We both want the same things. And we want them to spend their time on the folks who are doing the littering, sinking bottles, and trashing our rivers, not wasting it talking to us about the relative merits of mesh bags vs. sturdy containers. If we wait to resolve it on the river by waving around a copy of the law on the river bank, even if we avoid an unjust ticket, we have not achieved the best possible outcome.

I did go out of my way to emphasize that we are happy to see them out there and are completely behind their efforts to keep our waterways safe and clean. He seemed very grateful to hear that. I also mentioned the soon to be provided laminated copies and suggested that it would be much better for everyone if the officers were educated by colleagues in the office rather than paddlers on a gravel bar. He chuckled and told me I was absolutely right. I plan to keep mine handy just the same. As an old boss of mine used to say, trust but verify.

[ShayA]

Just FYI, I was on the downriver float Saturday in a tandem sit on top. We got pulled over by the group of officers. We had 2 water bottles clipped to the boat with carabiners and a clear medium size dry bag also securely attached. No mesh bag. I wasn't ticketed and the officer did not say anything other than have a nice day.

[Cowper]

ARe there signs posted at Remmell that explain the law to paddlers. Not that everyone would read them but then if they got a ticket there would be no excuse for not having their trash securely bagged.

Maggie

Sort of. I know, because I put them there.

The signs, like most of the other info, were printed based on the 2001 law. But the mesh bag that was the "only option" under the 2001 "old" law, will still keep you out of trouble under the "current" 2003 law.

At Remmel, the sign is at the top of the hill because closer to the put-in is in the flood plain and wouldn't last long. So technically, the sign is there, but in reality, we can't expect people to say "I wonder what that sign with all the fine print says..." and then stop their car at the top of the hill to walk over and look.

There is also a sign at the take-out (provided by AGFC, but posted by me), is a little better. And Saline River Canoe makes reasonable efforts to inform their customers of the law.

With respect to litter, I like Lupe's comment - I'd like to see some enforcement of anti-littering statutes, vs. just our beloved "you might litter if you don't have a mesh bag" law. Too many times I've seen cans floating free from boats that had empty or near empty mesh bags....

[Cowper]

One more comment: Some have questioned "why not just carry a mesh bag, then no further discussion is necessary".

Yes, I could do that. That would solve the "mesh bag" vs. "sturdy container" debate. But the new law includes another important provision that I consider critical: Under the 2001 version, if you have glass, you're "busted". Period, end of discussion, you are in possession. Under the improved 2003 version, "current law", you can not be fined for picking up glass left by others, if the glass is properly secured in your mesh bag or other study container. Yes, this forces the officer to consider other factors - is there evidence you have been picking up other trash? Are you drunk, with 6 empty bottles, same brand, no moss on the bottles, and no canned beer in your cooler? But under the 2003 law, you don't have to leave other people's litter where you saw it - you can pick it up and not end up with a ticket yourself for trying to do the right thing.

"Rolling over" and just carrying a mesh bag will not protect you if you are picking up glass left by others. I would like to see us work with AGF to insure their officers are up-to-date, that is a much better solution.

[Canoe_Codger]

Please note that I suggested carrying a mesh bag, needed or not, as a "get-by" solution while pursueing other avenues to actually solve the problem, not as a solution in and of itself but to keep one from being harassed and possibly ticketed or warned when otherwise if full compliance with the law, an "end run" around those officers and their helpers who are yet to be brought up to date on the law and what is and is not in compliance with the revised law.

I use a similar tact here when I go canoeing in my tandem canoes to keep from being ticketed over a lack of sufficient PFDs onboard after fishing swimmers out of streams. I keep a spare onboard. I've never been ticketed for such, but I know it has happened to others both here and elsewhere. I want neither the stigma or the financial loss (fine plus time off work to appear in court) and it is such a mild inconvenience that it is not hard for me to justify. Like carrying a mesh bag as a standard part of my equipment even when not needed.

Kudos to Luke and those others here who are making the effort to rectify this problem in Arkansas. And fie on those who are ignoring the laws on litter and glass containers. I would love to be able to make river trips here barefoot and not have to spend time chasing down Bud bottles and cans, fritos bags and other trash. This is a good, worthwhile conversation and a shining example of the value of the ACC to Arkansans and others from adjacent states as well.

Michael

[Cadron Boy]

For those who are concerned -- why we need to prevent trash from getting into our rivers:

http://www.rockcitytimes.com/buffalo-ri ... heap-beer/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

P.S. Tis a spoof!

[Dan Daniel]

My inflation-adjusted 2cents worth.
When I went Pruitt to Hasty last month, we passed three or four ranger-guys at the put-in, basically just wandering around, and not much else. So, we put on, paddle around a couple of bends, and there's the checkpoint. 4 guys pulling over what looked like every boat. They were courteous, checked us out, and sent us on our way, I made double-sure I had a mesh-bag, everything stored and secured, but I'm that way anyway.
I guess my real issue is this. IF this is supposed to keep glass and litter off the river, WHY don't they do this AT THE PUT-IN?
The hypocrisy, insults me. They weren't trying to "keep litter off the river", they were generating revenue.
I wanted to ask them, with their huge pile of glass and trash, if they had mesh bags and were in compliance.
I smiled, said have a great day, and paddled away instead, but the whole deal really bothered me, and continues to bother me.
I'd really like to respect what these guys do...
Seems like just another reason to get into my cooler or bag. Of course, knowing there were likely to be there, we planned accordingly, but still, the fact remains, that they had a crap-ton of trash at their checkpoint, all of which they had to haul out, down the river, so whether that trash was taken down the river by floaters, or officers, it STILL MADE IT ON THE RIVER.
and that seems to be directly against what the whole point of this whole deal. Add that to the fact that there were so many officers in and around the river corridor leads me to believe that the tickets written have no chance of ever impacting making things nicer there, but to only help pay all those officers. They can't afford to keep the bathrooms open, but they can pay 10 rangers... Just screwy if we really want to help the river, which I do not believe is the case.
And just so you know I'm not a butthole about the rangers being there, I thought it was GREAT that they had a sobriety checkpoing just up from the Take-out. THAT was accomplishing something!

[Deuce]

Just received this update.

http://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2013 ... -director/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Cadron Boy]

Did you know that there are currently five states where a first offense speeding ticket will cost the driver over $1000.00? I kid you not!

I'm all for safety and clean rivers but a lot of regulatory activity is simply another way for cities, states and government agencies to "tax" folks who break our nation's laws. And unlike personal or property taxes, fines can be applied solely at the discretion of "the man" and it is that combination of power and money that corrupts even those possessing the highest level of integrity. Tis simply human nature.

[Cadron Boy]

One last word: DAMASCUS!