Who has gotten Litter Law tickets in 2013?

[Cowper]

I heard that Game and Fish was out on the Ouachita yesterday, enforcing our litter law.

On the HUGE “plus” side, you could see the benefits at the ledge – it was very noticeable that the number of cans and other pieces of litter floating free was far below what has become the new “normal”.

On the minor “minus” side, the Game and Fish officers are still unaware of the changes that were made in the law in 2003, only 2 years after it first became a law. (UPDATE/CORRECTION - see bottom of this post) I know of at least one “warning” ticket handed out to a responsible boater who was in full compliance with the current law, because he had a “sturdy container”, but no mesh bag. But he still got a ticket, and the officer insisted only a “mesh bag” was acceptable. Another boater, with no food and no beverages, almost got a warning ticket as well, but avoided it mostly because someone was able to convince the officer that writing an 84 year old woman a warning ticket for not having a trash bag for the trash she didn’t have was really not in anyone’s best interests. Under the 2003 version of the law, which IS the current law, she is not required to have a container if she had no “foodstuffs or beverages” on board. But I think the officer decided not to write the ticket on his own “discretion” after considering the lady’s age, not because he believed what the boater was trying to tell him about what the law really says.

Last year, we got Game and Fish to update their website to show new wording based on the current version of the law, but apparently the word has yet to make it to the rank-and-file officers charged with enforcing the law.

What I want to know, is did anyone else have similar experiences this year, and if so, on what river? I’m trying to decide if this is worth following up on, or if my time would be better spent simply organizing another river clean-up or two.

Please keep any comments very professional; if this turns into a bashing of AG&F officers for trying to do their jobs, based on the training they have received which unfortunately is the “old” law, I’ll have no choice but to delete my post, which will “kill” the entire thread. If there is some particularly distasteful event or interaction that occurred, please send me a private message about that instead of posting here. I’ve seen too many threads spin out of control once everyone starts telling their “war stories”. I can say this ‘cause I’m guilty too; if you don’t believe me then just ask me about the time I got a warning ticket and 30 minute, insult-filled tongue lashing in Tennessee for not wearing my PFD while wading.

So, who has gotten a ticket or warning ticket this year, even though you were in compliance with the law?

Litter Law.docx

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CORRECTION/UPDATE TO ORIGINAL STATEMENT (8/3/13): When I posted the above, I honestly believed that more than 50% of AGF officers may be basing their enforcement activities on the outdated version of the law, because in the past I had heard of multiple instances of "no mesh bag" warnings given to those who DID have sturdy containers. So when I heard that happened again this past weekend, I thought maybe we still had a widespread problem with this. One would think that if more than 50% were "up to date", then the information would be shared with fellow officers in these "gatherings" of multiple officers, and we would see zero tickets except where tickets were deserved. Now I'm not so sure. In 5 pages of response to my post, we've learned that many of us just don't like being stopped by men with guns on the river, others don't mind, but not a single additional case of a warning ticket or fine for "no mesh bag" has been identified in 2013. The thing that seems to be universal: We all seem to agree that something needs to be done at the put-ins to stop the glass from ever getting on the river. Bad people are catching on, they are sinking their bottles before they get to the "road blocks", which is the exact opposite of what we want to happen.

[737driver]

Should one of us write a professional and friendly letter to the division responsible for the Ouachita river asking for a clarification of the law with the attached law?

[Deuce]

Should one of us write a professional and friendly letter to the division responsible for the Ouachita river asking for a clarification of the law with the attached law?

IMO no. This is not a clarification issue. The law is crystal clear and needs no additional clarification. This is a personnel issue. I can't understand why, but the officers in the field simply don't know the law. I've printed it directly from the AGFC web site and will laminate it and put it in my day dry bag. If I'm issued another warning I will shake the officer's hand, tell them I'm really glad they're out there and offer to show them a copy of the statute they're incorrectly attempting to enforce, then sign the warning and be on my way. If someone attempts to cite me I'll refuse to sign, record the officer's identification, and insist that he/she read (or verbally refuse to read) the statute in front of witnesses and hope the situation doesn't escalate too much. I'm really a softie and hate confrontation, but I won't pay a fine for a nonviolation or admit guilt where there is none. I have immense respect for our law enforcement personnel and I go out of my way to be accomodating, but this kind of ignorance (and I don't mean that in the pejorative sense; these guys and gals were clearly ignorant of the law) would not be tolerated by my employer, and it shouldn't be tolerated by their employer, us. I'm not sure what if anything I'll do in response to yesterday. I may simply call the office, ask to be connected to whoever is over enforcement, and just chat with them if they're willing. I would really like to know where the disconnect is, because this is so easily remedied. Thoughts?

[SteveGabbard]

Honest question. What is a "warning"? Does it go on your record?

[Deuce]

Honest question. What is a "warning"? Does it go on your record?

I was told yesterday it doesn't, but they now have carbon copies with my info on them, so.......

[Cowper]

We know where the disconnect is on this one, we just need to figure out who at AGF can help repair it.

Very simply, AGF materials were printed up when the law was first passed in 2001. But they were not updated when the law was revised in 2003. Their website was incorrect until I contacted them in 2012; they were very helpful and made the needed updates after one or two emails alerting them to the problem.

Their printed trash bags are still based on the old law, but so far they either have a large supply from previous printings, and / or they just refill orders from the original deign without updating the graphics. I'd like to see that changed, but it is less critical than officers knowing about the changes because the bag is only a summary of the law and many key points are the same.

The problem is these officers have to enforce hundreds of laws, it is hard to memorize the details of each. When the chief of their enforcement division spoke to the central chapter, I think he said their officers have a handbook that summarizes those laws. Who would like to bet that the handbook, like the website and the bags, is still based on the old version and has never been updated?

Yes Duece, I think a phone call to someone in enforcement would be a great place to start!

[Steve S]

Last Fall, the man in charge of the AG&F Enforcement Division talked to the Central Chapter at their monthly meeting. In appearance he reminded me of the tough, no-nonsnese NCO's I experienced in the military. But as he started to talk, you got the impression that he was flexible and very interested in getting feedback from the paddling community.

I asked him point-blank about how we should handle a situation when the AG&F officer didn't know or understand the current law. His response was to stay civil and contact AG&F as soon as possible so the ticket coudl be cancelled and the officer involved counseled on the law.

[Canoe_Codger]

A suggestion from an "outsider"? Perhaps carry copies of the law and an accompanying letter from the chief of the enforcement division on the matter. When a problem arises, present them to the officer in the most congenial manner possible. A letter from "the Boss" might give the officer a point of reference easier to swallow than being told by a "civilian" to read the law. But... beyond this, bringing the problem up at a meeting of the full commission might achieve best results as far as seeing the officers, all of them, given a clarification of the law, it's meaning and how to go about enforcing it. Short of taking a state politician through a "strainer" and letting them experience the misapplication first hand that is. Or a certain "Traveling Arkansas" media personality.

Michael (going back to my corner wearing my old AG&FC hat)...

[AR-Nimrod]

HHH thought she was going to get a ticket Sat. on the Ouachita for not having a mesh bag but, since plenty of others in the group she was with had mesh bags they let her slide according to her. As she was relating this story to me, I wondered how much being a cute 17 year-old girl had to do with it?

All this aside the officers do really need to learn the laws they enforce. I have had officers tell me that because I had a hatch covered compartment on my kayak that I was not required to have a mesh bag. The hatch is considered to be a "secure container". So apparently some of them do know the current law. The kayak HHH was in Sat. had a hatch covered compartment and two "cat-bag" compartments but that was apparently not taken into consideration as it was never mentioned. But it was all good anyway: no ticket or warning.

I think opening a dialogue with management at AGFC regarding this issue might be the first step in bringing the rank and file officers up to speed on the current law as it is written.

[Deuce]

I've been given the name of a person who should be able to help. I just left her a voice mail and will report the results of our conversation. She returns today from a long absence, so I suspect it will be a while before I hear from her.

[Steve S]

Jeff Crow is the AGFC Chief of Enforcement. http://www.agfc.com/Pages/newsDetails.aspx?show=382" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

As I indicated in my earlier post, I was very impressed with the way he addressed the issue of AG&F officers not knowing the current law. I think an e-mail to him with details of Saturday's encounter would make a positive difference.

[Deuce]

Thank you for the reminder, Steve. I have a call in to him as well. I just can't believe this continues to be an issue. I don't expect personnel to have an encyclopedic grasp of the laws, but this one is at the forefront of their enforcement offensive on moving water, and their lack of requisite knowledge undermines their moral authority. I visited with several folks at the takeout who had been cited for glaring offenses; sinking plastic, possessing glass, unsecured coolers, that sort of thing. I asked them if they knew the law, and every one of them responded "they don't, why should I?"

[Twindad]

Has AG&F ticketed or threatened to ticket anyone at the ledge? That is, has anyone encountered this while Park-and-Playing? Does a single cockpit kayak with a spray-skirt comprise a closed trash container?

[Deuce]

Has AG&F ticketed or threatened to ticket anyone at the ledge? That is, has anyone encountered this while Park-and-Playing? Does a single cockpit kayak with a spray-skirt comprise a closed trash container?

I can't answer either of those questions definitively, but I can say there's no way the ledge would be able to accomodate the operation they set up Saturday.

There were five or six intern type people of varying ages attempting to corral floaters. They were in constant danger of being knocked down and hurt because they were shin deep in the water and way too close together in addition to some of them being physically unable to control the boats. Fortunately everyone behaved and there was one actual officer at the water's edge in case anything went amiss. With the exception of one officer who was posted upstream in the woods with a spy glass the rest of them (four as I recall) were under a canopy writing tickets, making people empty unapproved containers, etc. Other than the non-officers in the water and the previously mentioned issues it was an orderly scene but way too big for the ledge.

As to whether a playboat would need a litter container I guess that would depend on what was in the boat, but given my and others' experiences I wouldn't count on a skirt to render it a closed container.

[Canoe_Codger]

It seems that one simple get-by solution is to stuff a mesh bag in every floating vessel even if you don't need one. Empty, they fold and roll up really small and weigh nothing. Of course better enforcement education, especially if they are enlisting non-officer trainee wranglers, is to work it from the top down. Where are the Gopro cameras when you need them? I could only wish that we had such river laws here in Tennessee and enforced with an even hand. I would be willing to volunteer some time on the river myself wearing my TWRA hat.

Michael (goes out to stuff an onion sack in each canoe on the rack)