Would this work?

[737driver]

A question for all you SWR people... Having only boated whitewater for about a year, I haven't had the chance to take a SWR course. However, I have always been a "prepper" or safety freak. Mainly due to the nature of my job and my hobbies. I found the following article a few months back while reading about what gear to have while paddling. http://totalwhitewaterfun.blogspot.com/ ... g.html?m=1
Towards the end of the article the author shows a snorkel made of a 4 ft piece of tubing. His thinking is that it can be used to help a boater in a pin or foot entrapment whose head is just below the surface. The victim could then continue to breathe while others could free him. I made a similar version that I now carry in my boat or pfd. What's your thoughts? Would it work?

[mgood]

Too soon. Poor guy lost his life paddling. It's a little to close to the tragedy to jump onto the subject.

Also, unless someone on here helped rescue him, I'm pretty sure no one would really ever know if one extra piece of gear would have helped. I'm skeptical that anything like what you're describing would work in a river with over 300 cfs flowing.

[737driver]

Sorry, maybe I shouldn't have mentioned the accident. I think it's never to soon to learn about a possible prevention though. In some videos I've recently watched showing pins and entrapments, the persons heads were only 5 or so inches under the surface. So wouldn't a hose that's at least a foot that has a breathe valve like a scuba snorkel work? Obviously the person would need to know how to use it, but it might work. I'm a diver and know how to give rescue breaths or buddy breathe. It works fine if the person receiving knows how to do it. But hey, I'm the new guy so if its too touchy of a subject, I'll delete it.

[TrentF]

Appreciate the link to that article! I am also a new WW boater and have recently been trying to put together a safety/first aid/rescue bag to carry with me at all times on the water and the link gave me some new ideas! I wasn't able to make the SWR class this past weekend but plan on making the next one as soon as I hear about it. Also will be trying to make the wilderness first aid class in April to.

[we66erno1]

I carry something similar. It's about 4.5ft long. It is strapped to the inside of my boat, to the rear pillar. I've helped people that had a foot entrapment. Two at the spring river(at the rapid in front of Howard's house), one at the buffalo.

After the third time I started wondering what if the victim was under water so deep, a stabilization line would not help. Then I met 737driver at the end of last summer. He showed me his snorkel. Now I have one, every time I'm in my creek boat.

All tragedies have lessons that can be learned from them. I'm sure this boater would like ideas to be discussed, that could help situations similar to his.

I do pray for this boater's family that the lord will help them with their sorrows and dispair.

[PropaneGuru]

I think the snorkel or any innovative idea that might save a life is worth considering. I attended the SWR class and was amazed at what innovative thinking can accomplish. As for me and my boat, I believe we will carry a snorkel. I hope the occasion never arise to try it out. However, should I ever need just a foot to save someone's life, it would be worth twice its weight in gold.

[SteveGabbard]

Some may say too soon but I don't believe anyone would be able to agree on how much time after an incident should pass before it should be discussed. Should you wait one day or one month? The reason an incident is discussed is to learn from it and hopefully use that knowledge to help in future situations. So say we wait a month and during that time period a similar incident happens. Would the people responding be better prepared if they had just had a discussion on how to handle the situation? Most definately.

It may sound crass, but I believe it is never to soon to analyze something and consider what might have worked if anything. As far as the snorkle goes I am pretty sure it has been discussed on boatertalk before.

[mgood]

Some may say too soon but I don't believe anyone would be able to agree on how much time after an incident should pass before it should be discussed. Should you wait one day or one month? The reason an incident is discussed is to learn from it and hopefully use that knowledge to help in future situations. So say we wait a month and during that time period a similar incident happens. Would the people responding be better prepared if they had just had a discussion on how to handle the situation? Most definately.

It may sound crass, but I believe it is never to soon to analyze something and consider what might have worked if anything. As far as the snorkle goes I am pretty sure it has been discussed on boatertalk before.

The man is not yet in the ground. That's your sign that it's too soon. Talk away all you want, but count me out of it.

[737driver]

I truly apologize if I struck a nerve. Out of respect to you and his family, I removed any comments made about it. Although no names were mentioned, it's in the news. That's how I know about it. I pray for the family. I simply wanted to know if future lives might be saved by discussing this possible life saving method. I'm on the aircraft accident prevention team with the FAA and NTSB. If a tragic accident including loss of life happened tonight, I'll be on a plane tomorrow to meet with officials to start researching how to prevent a future tragedy. I think the flying public would want me to start that research as soon as possible. This thread was just research in the form of an outreach to more experienced fellows than I. So I think any further conversation about this snorkel will only be helpful, but let's agree to leave out discussion about Sunday.

[Roger]

Would have been at ALF this year but teaching duties kept me from attending this year.

Got a text that day of what was going on. Familiar with the rapids from a visual view (never paddled it and never will)and knowing who was in the group tells me all I need to know. The extraction of the victim from the entrapment was executed with a live-bait procedure which might have included more than one rescuer.

Rescues of this type will always be a matter of skill, luck, opportunity, circumstances, and support.

Either way, we lost a paddling friend.

[Steve S]

Would a 4-foot breathing tube work for a trapped boater whose head is just beneath the surface of the water? Perhaps. And it certainly would be nice to have it available.

But here are some challenges you should be prepared to deal with. You may not be able to get close enough to a pinned boater to hand him/her the tube. If the current is strong enough to hold the victim, you may not be able to get close without putting yourself in danger. The mantra of SWR is "make no more victims".

If you are able to get close to the victim, the noise of the water may prevent them from understanding what you want them to do with the tube - or they may not be aware that the tube is there. I was involved in a rescue on the Mulberry where the victim, who was hung in a strainer, was only 3 feet from the bank. But the noise of the water flowing around his head prevented him from hearing instructions or even being aware that a rope was being passed to him.

And somehow you have to get the victim calm enough so they can use the tube as you intend. It's one thing to sit in a quiet environment and tell yourself that you are going to put the tube in your mouth and start breathing through it. It's quite another to be trapped in the water and to think that you may only have a moment or two more of consciousness. Panic may prevent the victim from understanding your intentions.

In short, the 4-foot breathing tube could be a great rescue implement. But its use may require some effort and ingenuity.

[paddledog]

If it works, it would help.
The greatest tool in rescue work is your training and
ability to use said training.
We all carry a tube in our yaks.
Think air bag.
If I could get to someone to give them the snorkel/tube,
I would think I could help hold their head up.
But as no two rapids are the same,
no two rescues are the same.
The ability to adjust/invent on the spot is golden in SWR.
I have one piece of equipment I carry that few do and can not
be faked with any other gear. Wire cutters.

[RomanLA]

Here ya go...
Quick Air

They also have Rapid Air, which was used in Congo: the Grand Inga Project.
Rapid Air

[737driver]

Sweet! That's the setup I have. Never know. It could very well save a life. Always worth a try.

[okieboater]

I do not have the article, but this topic was discussed and tests run some years ago.

Here is what I remember and offer for discussion.

They found out that most tubes did not let the victim get enough air down to them. This was a function of the size of the tube and also it's length. Don't know the exact length but I was surprised how short it was and how large the tube needed to be to work.

From my misspent youth days vacationing down in the Florida Keys, I think a skin diving snorkel would work if you could get it to the person quickly and they could use it. It would be good to run some tests in a pool with qualified help there. The issue being the person in need being able to actually start breathing thru the snorkel with their nose open. I guess the rescue person could help by holding the victim's nose.

I know several of us were in the big hot springs pool at the Chalk Cliffs resort out of BV CO and ran a bunch of tests to see how long we could hold our breaths underwater. 45 seconds was the average length of time for the group. Which tells me rescue must be done really fast.

I just finished reading an article about life guards. Bottom line is most of the people especially kids do not exhibit the classic signs of arm waving and choking. They just go under and don't come back up. Again, for rescue speed is the key to survival.

Also a rule of thumb I got from the first Swift Water Rescue Instructor class the ACC had was a drowning victim was not dead till they were warm and dead. Cold water can bring on a situation where the person can be resuscitated with CPR for a long time. Again not sure of the article but remember some kid who was trapped under the ice up North being brought back after some 45 minutes and did just fine. I think the instructor trainer was telling us to do CPR just in case no matter what.