Unintended Dunking/Cold Shock

[Deuce]

I hesitate to use the word swim since that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm thinking of flipping a canoe in Class I-II water due to complacency, stupidity, etc. Think of places like the Buffalo and Current where the shore and a chance to get into dry clothes are rarely more than a couple of minutes away. My strategy has always been to keep a dry bag handy with everything I'd need to return to the boat a warm and dry paddler. This makes good sense of course, but it doesn't really do anything to address the concern of falling victim to cold shock, at which point one's presence of mind might not be sufficient to retrieve the boat and get to shore in order to dry off and change. I fell into the Current last February and had no problems getting to shore, but the air temp was in the mid fifties and the boat was upright with my guffawing buddy still in it (long story ).

I'm moving toward whitewater paddling, but I don't see any winter whitewater trips in my near future, so I won't be dropping a big chunk of change on a drysuit any time soon. Should I get a Farmer John with the assumption that it would buy me a few minutes in the water? Continue to live with the calculated risk that I've been taking? Something else I'm not aware of? Keep in mind I only paddle open boats.

[Tim Eubanks]

Luke
I've only been quasi-hypthermic once, not fun. Had I changed out my wet base layer with a dry one, prolly would have been OK.
There's some formula about air and water temp and wetsuits. My rule of thumb is dress to swim ,not to stay dry and warm. I guess if I was going to the Buffalo in winter I'd be wearing polyester and splash outer wear with a change of polyester. Dry suit or dry top seems a bit over kill. A farmer john would be good if you planned multiple swims.
I'm no expert, just got some free time right now. So there's my $.02 worth.

[mgood]

Fleece bunny suit + dry top + dry pants. Cheaper (by about $700 than a drysuit), and I'm good down to paddling into the 20's outside. The fleece one-zy is the key to the system.

[okieboater]

Mr Luke,

My advice for what it is worth.

Also a long read that covers multiple situations some of which some might think is over cautious thinking.

A dry top, fleece and farmer John wet suit is bare minimum for typical cool to cold Arkansas creek runs. Way back when I had a bud dressed this way (but had a paddle jacket over a wool sweater not a dry top) take a relative short swim on Big Piney from a kayak. Gent in good shape maybe thirtieths in age. We immediately got him into an assembly of what dry clothes we happened to have and built a roaring white mans fire. It was around or slightly below freezing but not much wind. took us a while to get him back to normal. We did not have hot chocolate. He started out shaking uncontrollably and as he warmed up that went away. Had we not got him out fast, got him dry and into reasonably dry clothes and had the big fire. It would have been serious.

On a canoe trip last January we had a gent take a swim no protection just regular shore clothing. Again young guy, good shape. We got him out, dried him off, I had hot chocolate ready by the time he got to shore, big white man's fire. It was cool but not cold. He did not show signs of hypothermia but we had plenty of folks who knew what to do and did it really fast.

Couple years ago on Grand Canyon after rowing Hance I got ejected by a innocent looking foamy hole from my raft wearing shorts and cotton tee shirts. Had just taken off my dry top and neoprene shorts which was my rapid running gear that day. It happened to be a long swim. Last thing I remember was swimming to my cat boat and grabbing the front crossbar to climb in. Again awesome group. I woke up on Walter Feltons big cat boat dressed in a bud's fleece outfit looking into a O/R head nurse eyes as she monitored my recovery and talked to me. Thanks Robin. Also a couple Doctors on the trip were there. Both helped. I can tell you I never felt a thing, I felt totally in control and was positive I could self rescue but was out cold.
Weather was sunny and reasonably warm but man that GC water is cold!

I have rescued a bud dressed in a dry suit and fleece on a January Arkansas trip, cold weather not freezing but close to it. Got him to shore and we built a big white man's fire. Not a problem, he appeared and talked normally and after just a short warm up session we wet down the fire and went on with the trip. No problem.

What this tells me and my advice to you follows:

1. Dry top and farmer john is good for cool weather swims. Especially good when swimming rocky shoals. Would work for cool weather and cool water but in my opinion, not for freezing cold weather and water. The issue with dry suits is in the water, cold water will flush thru the space between the skin and neoprene and suck off body heat. Farmer John does give a lot of floatation and protection from rocks. Paddle jackets do not do much for you if you swim.

2. Even in relatively warm sunny weather but really cold water if a person is not dressed for a swim, taking a extended swim can be hazardous to living. I am gonna say ten to fifteen minutes in water like GC has and the normal person dressed in cotton is going to be unable to take care of themselves.

3. As has been mentioned by others on this board, I consider a dry suit with fleece, maybe a smart wool top, with sewn in footies with thick wool socks is a safety piece of gear. Add a neoprene divers helmet under your kayak lid and you can laugh at freezing conditions if in decent shape and reasonably short swims. Swims will be easier with a properly dressed dry suit and you might well self rescue. My recommended outfit for cold weather water swims.

Bottom Line: Don't think a dry suit in sub freezing air and water that is freezing in the shallows is bomb proof if you swim. I took a swim dressed in a dry suit but nothing on my head (but kayak helmet) or neck (except the dry suit latex). Did not take long for the water to spasm my throat thru the latex and put me out for the count. I don't think it was hypothermia that got me, but muscles hit by freezing cold water did the choking deal.

My take is even in a dry suit, swimming in temps in the low teens and with water freezing in the shallows IS taking a chance. One I do not take anymore. Well conditioned well outfitted paddlers might for the right run, at this point I do not like the odds.

[ckuntz]

My opinion

If you are serious about paddling in Arkansas, get a dry suit. Majority of rain is going to be from November to May with majority in cold conditions. Hypothermia is very likely without it if you take prolonged swim or have to free pinned boat, etc... You will be wincing as you pay for the dry suit because of the price, but it's worth it's weight in gold. Or you paddle on a warm day when the rivers are flowing which is about 2 weeks out of the year here.
Have had multiple experiences in wet suits and other ad ons and it's just not the same. Fatigue and cold sets in quickly..
Had one close call open boating years ago on Piney where I had to hike out and tried to swim across in January and almost drowned. Arms and legs feel like 1000 pounds each and breathing is labored.
Dry suit is the way to go!

Chris

[Deuce]

Thanks guys. Mr. Dave, hope the rehab is going well and you'll be ready for some gravel bar DO treats by spring. Variety of opinions so far. At present I just cannot justify a dry suit for my style and frequency of paddling. Dry pants and dry top maybe, but not a dry suit. So, here's the next question. If I bought those would they work later for Mulberry, Piney, Cossatot, etc., or should I just wait and get a dry suit when the time comes?

[okieboater]

Thanks Luke,

Rehab is doing remarkably well according to the Doctors I see, considering what happened Trauma wise at GC Horn Creek low water run. But, not fast enough for me.

Am just recently walking with a cane, lots of work being done by Physical Therapist to unlock muscles, many of which are just loaded with scar tissue. Muscle by muscle progress and slow going. Get one unlocked and others show up. Right now I truly appreciate the good work physical therapists do healing people like me with horrific trauma injury. Hoping to be on the water by springtime in a IK. Spine Doctor sez stay away from hard shell kayak for at least a year. Concern being the metal cage holding crushed vertebrae might be torn loose if I do a roll. So I ordered a custom made ThrillSeeker IK. Prolly take a month for mine to get in / through the production cycle. These things are built custom one by one not for inventory.

And, for what it is worth. I do most of my boating (or did until Sept 14 of last fall) in a dry top and dry pants. Even most of warm season, just vary the smartwool / fleece layers to suit the weather and water. I consider a dry suit with sewn in gore tex footies and relief zipper to be the best cold weather setup available to us boaters as of today, but a good dry top and dry pants is the second best in my opinion. Since the ThrillSeeker is going to be very wet, my guess is I will be wearing the dry suit most of the time.

Every one's tolerance to cold is different. My advice is don't find out just what little cold puts you out by taking a unplanned swim is less than ideal protective clothing. To me it is a safety issue more than a comfort issue.

[Cowper]

For WW, a drysuit is worth every penny. But to answer your question instead of re-writing it, here’s the strategy I go with for canoes:

1) For flatwater and easy WW, I generally wear comfortable “dry land” outdoor clothing, supplemented by either muck boots or waders of some type.

2) If the weather is cold, my dry bag contains a small towel and the same gear I would normally use if paddling WW on the same day. For me that is the drysuit + fleece, but this could be any of the other combos being suggested like drytop + dry pants + fleece, etc.

My thinking is that if I take a spill, then I will be cold and more likely to make additional mistakes. So after that first spill, I don’t want to be using the last of my “reserve” dry clothing, so I plan to switch into gear that can survive additional dunkings without the need to change again.

For trips like runs on Cadron Creek, I might go either way, depending on multiple factors. Waders make great wear for trash recovery missions, and I worry less about an expensive drysuit being cut or punctured. So if the water is low, waders. If the water is high, WW gear. If there are a number of newer paddlers coming who might need assistance, WW gear. If there are plenty of experienced folks to take care of the group without my help, waders. I don’t mean to make it sound too complex, but I do want to make the point that your choice of gear should consider not only the probability that YOU might have trouble, but also an assessment of the probability that others might need your help, which in turn might require you to get wet.

[Deuce]

Sounds like I just need to keep my peepers open for a screamin' deal on a suit. Great advice as usual everyone. Many thanks.

[Dannyboy]

I'd like to second Dave's recommendation on the neoprene hood and add my two cents worth if I may. My biggest and quickest danger in really cold water has always been my head. If I even have to roll in icy water, I get a splitting and almost instantaneous headache. I have twice ended up swimming where my head/neck went under for a couple seconds more than once, and actually passed out! Both times I had already but barely finished my roll and slumped forward. Luckily both times I had a nearby paddle buddy to cry out to who steadied me until I came to about 5-10 seconds later. Not long, but plenty of time to get into something serious if you're OUT.

Now I NEVER paddle in really cold water without my neoprene balaclava. Its really cheap insurance, trust me. Maybe I'm particularly susceptible for some reason. However you can test the theory by going down to the creek right now and dunking your head and neck for about 5 seconds or so and noting how your body reacts. And I suggest taking a friend along just in case...

PS Glad to see you up n at em Dave!

[Cowper]

Thanks for reminding me Danny. The hood can be key on lots of days!

On days with temps staying in the thirties, I just wear it. If it is in the fourties or higher, I still take it in my drybag, instead of extra fleece. Much smaller, and helps more with total heat loss than just adding another layer.

I find coverage provided by something like the NRS "Mystery Storm Hood" can make all the difference in comfort factor (and safety) on many cold days. I don't think helmet liners alone are in the same ball park for total warmth.

[Dane Pruitt]

To the top for 4wheelin and cold weather gear. since I do not know how to post a link. Plus just good info

[Paddlegal]

My first swim was in the Caddo with warm winter temps. I believe it was close to 55 or 60 degrees, can't really recall. I stumbled out of the rapid soaking wet from head to toe. Capilene long underwear, (pants and long sleeved top) micro fleece pants and top on top of that and no dry clothes to change into. I stayed in those wet clothes all day and stayed warm. Amazing, maybe it was the hot flashes?

[Roger]

$500 for dry top/bottom, maybe. $200 more gets the one piece. These are just esitmates depending on point of sale!!

If you are going to be in an inflatable or whitewater canoe, go suit. Kayak? Save the money.

BTW, how often are you planning on swimming? But seriously, if you're a rafter as well, try to get the suit.

[mohawklady]

Jon (fryingsqirrel)and I took on a big wave the first part of March about 10 yrs ago, we were loaded in my Mohawk Intreped with and extra person in the boat, The wave swamped us, (note: we did not flip) It was like our boat did a dive. The current was moving pretty good and when I slowly exited the boat it literally took my breath away. It was the coldest water I have ever been in. We were with a group and they were able to tow the boat to shore, one of the kayakers grabbed out extra passenger and towed her and Jon and I swam to shore. We both were layed in fleece and polypro and( of course I have a layer of fat to protect me as well) we were just shivering slightly when we hit the shore. When you are in that kind of situation, modesty goes out the window. We both huddled around a group while they stood with their backs to us and changed clothes immediately. It depends on your tolerance to the cold on your choice of clothing, we have been extremely lucky in the twenty years that we have been on the buffalo and if I had the money I would have the proper dry suits but until that happens I will just stick to the layering...Pam