The issue of access to Big Piney Creek comes up once in a while over the last few years. Terry Hope from the Jasper office, NFS contacted me to see if the club had suggestions about What if Heltons farm access is no longer available. There are a couple of factors involved. The current access is now divided between a couple of family members which MAY complicate things, but I doubt it.
Possibly more pressing is a physical issue, the Creek itself is moving. Less and less water flows thru the currently accessible channel. Even now you have to go to the right around a small island, and in time even this channel will be gone. The vast majority of water is moving to river right.
In my mind the best option would be to put another put in downstream a few hundred yards to access the main channel. This requires crossing a hay field and may not be possible as the land owner may not want to.
Terry said the a forest service access is difficult on the east side, river left, because of all the private property. He suggested that an access on river right near graves creek is a possibility. But that cuts off an upstream portion of the float and makes for a longer shuttle up the other side.
Yet another option would be to improve an access Phillups ford. Makes for a slightly longer float, but much longer shuttle.
What say ye?
Big Piney Creek access
-
boba
- ACC Conservation
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:40 am
- Location: bullfrog valley
- Contact:
Big Piney Creek access
Last edited by boba on Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
Shep
- ....
- Posts: 538
- Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:32 am
- Name: Paul Shepherd
- Location: Fayetteville, AR
Re: Big Piney Creek access
As of last year, access through Indian Creek is possible, but quite an adventure. I believe the shorter run starting at Indian Creek is balanced out by the shorter shuttle drive, although I don't know if it would possible to build a parking area there. To make it a workable put-in for rafts, and much more convenient for everyone, at least one 4-6 foot diameter tree must be removed just above the confluence with the Big Piney.
Hope this helps,
Shep
Hope this helps,
Shep
Paul Shepherd
"Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats (said the water rat solemnly)." - Kenneth Grahame, The Wind in the Willows
"Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats (said the water rat solemnly)." - Kenneth Grahame, The Wind in the Willows
-
boba
- ACC Conservation
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:40 am
- Location: bullfrog valley
- Contact:
Re: Big Piney Creek access
Indian creek has always been an option, but body bags may be necessary at some levels, the strainers near the confluence can be troublesome at best and deadly at times, at least that has been my experience over the years.
-
Tim Eubanks
- .....
- Posts: 1387
- Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:19 am
Re: Big Piney Creek access
Has any thought gone to some kind of easement or long-term lease with the landowner for the new access you are talking about?
Re: Big Piney Creek access
Indian creek is not an option for all crafts, all runnable levels. Although the few times that I accessed the Big Piney via Indian Creek were a hoot! Low volume creek experience followed by a big river run.. really cool !
The Helton Farm access area or immediately downstream needs to be preserve as an access.
My opinion is the ACC in cooperation with American Whitewater needs to raise this issue to a higher level so that something can be arranged to access. I have been disappointed that American Whitewater is not more active in access and conservation activities in the Ozarks.
There was an article in AW in 2012 about the passing of Mrs. Helton. It maybe a good time for a followup about access.
I no longer live in the Ozark area but I would contribute what I can to help, especially with American Whitewater.
The USFS should also be involved in access issues to the Big Piney.
The Helton Farm access area or immediately downstream needs to be preserve as an access.
My opinion is the ACC in cooperation with American Whitewater needs to raise this issue to a higher level so that something can be arranged to access. I have been disappointed that American Whitewater is not more active in access and conservation activities in the Ozarks.
There was an article in AW in 2012 about the passing of Mrs. Helton. It maybe a good time for a followup about access.
I no longer live in the Ozark area but I would contribute what I can to help, especially with American Whitewater.
The USFS should also be involved in access issues to the Big Piney.
Re: Big Piney Creek access
Bob:
I think that the next best option to Heltons is to access from Phillips Ford on river right (west side). Public access is not an issue, as the Forest Service (FS) owns the land above Phillips Ford and there is a primitive (unmaintained; no facilities) campsite that people often use. There is plenty of parking in this area, it does not flood (at floatable levels), and the access puts you into a nice pool above the rapid crossing Phillips Ford.
The shuttle for this route is not much longer than Heltons, as the FS road is generally in better condition. The main issue with this access is that it adds roughly 2 miles of river to the float, which is mostly long pools with few rapids.
Here are the primary access points to Big Piney for floats to Longpool (excluding Indian Creek, which the other posts have addressed) and the driving mileage/routes from Longpool:
1) Heltons – shuttle 2 miles pavement (Longpool road) and 10.5 miles FS dirt roads (1801/1805/1821).
2) Phillips Ford – river right (West) – shuttle 3 miles pavement (Longpool road/Hwy 164) and 12 miles FS dirt roads (1800/1802)
3) Phillips Ford – river left (East) – shuttle 2 miles pavement (Longpool road) and 23 miles FS dirt roads (1801/1805/1802).
When the river is floatable, Phillips ford cannot be crossed.
I would never choose option 3 (Phillips – river left) over option 2 (Phillips – river right) because it adds 40 minutes to the shuttle (one way) to take you to the same point. The river access is also flooded when floatable, and you enter the river in the middle of a fast rapid that almost always has a bad strainer right below the put in.
I will admit that I am not too familiar with the Graves Creek access on river right, but when I have gone that route in the summer, the access road is very difficult. As you mention, that access would also cut off some nice portions of the float.
One reason that I know this area well is that since 1964, my family has owned the old Phillips farm at Phillips Ford, and our property is mostly on river left. No one has ever approached us to discuss floating access on river left, because it would be insane to choose river left over river right for a float to Longpool.
With all of this said, Heltons is the best access point for this float, and I would be happy to assist in any effort to obtain better or improved access.
John
I think that the next best option to Heltons is to access from Phillips Ford on river right (west side). Public access is not an issue, as the Forest Service (FS) owns the land above Phillips Ford and there is a primitive (unmaintained; no facilities) campsite that people often use. There is plenty of parking in this area, it does not flood (at floatable levels), and the access puts you into a nice pool above the rapid crossing Phillips Ford.
The shuttle for this route is not much longer than Heltons, as the FS road is generally in better condition. The main issue with this access is that it adds roughly 2 miles of river to the float, which is mostly long pools with few rapids.
Here are the primary access points to Big Piney for floats to Longpool (excluding Indian Creek, which the other posts have addressed) and the driving mileage/routes from Longpool:
1) Heltons – shuttle 2 miles pavement (Longpool road) and 10.5 miles FS dirt roads (1801/1805/1821).
2) Phillips Ford – river right (West) – shuttle 3 miles pavement (Longpool road/Hwy 164) and 12 miles FS dirt roads (1800/1802)
3) Phillips Ford – river left (East) – shuttle 2 miles pavement (Longpool road) and 23 miles FS dirt roads (1801/1805/1802).
When the river is floatable, Phillips ford cannot be crossed.
I would never choose option 3 (Phillips – river left) over option 2 (Phillips – river right) because it adds 40 minutes to the shuttle (one way) to take you to the same point. The river access is also flooded when floatable, and you enter the river in the middle of a fast rapid that almost always has a bad strainer right below the put in.
I will admit that I am not too familiar with the Graves Creek access on river right, but when I have gone that route in the summer, the access road is very difficult. As you mention, that access would also cut off some nice portions of the float.
One reason that I know this area well is that since 1964, my family has owned the old Phillips farm at Phillips Ford, and our property is mostly on river left. No one has ever approached us to discuss floating access on river left, because it would be insane to choose river left over river right for a float to Longpool.
With all of this said, Heltons is the best access point for this float, and I would be happy to assist in any effort to obtain better or improved access.
John
John Fletcher
You never step into the same river twice.
You never step into the same river twice.
Re: Big Piney Creek access
Back in 2008, I put together a list of access points where permenant accomodations need to be arranged to preserve most of the paddling opportunities for most paddlers in this part of the state. Though it is not all-inclusive, I offer it to at least broaden discussion as we come together on the Helton's Farm access issue. I applaude John for offering to begin at least a conversation about the area near Phillips Ford.
Tentative Access Priority List 9-25-08
Cadron Creek:
Within 2 miles Above CCO : In the last 7-10 years, the Cadron has become a primary stream for Central Arkansas paddlers and non-motorized fishing folks. It’s high Class I water, has a number of play-spots and flows when many other streams have lost water levels. It’s close to Little Rock, Conway & Russellville, yet is still fairly unpopulated. Cadron Creek Outfitters (John Svenson) announced this week that he is closing off access through his property. This upper access is the highest priority for replacement in the Central Arkansas area. Recently, there was an ad in the newspaper by a man who owns 100 acres for sale downstream from Guy, AR. I have not checked the actual location, but it holds some promise. He was, however, asking $350,000 for the site and did not seem inclined to split it up. A site further downstream might work better and be had less expensively.
Cadron Creek:
Pinnacle Springs: Several years ago, someone left Mr. Tilman, the property owner, a present of three dead cows at the put-in on his land that paddlers had always used. He gated the access off the bridge and paddlers have ignored it and pulled over the fence since then. I believe there exists a public easement for use of that put-in… but… The original access at Pinnacle Springs was at the southeast corner via the existing gate. The road used to go all the way to a sandy beach about 1-200 yards upstream and from there to the bridge it was open access -- mostly beer drinking and horse shoe flippin' back then. Mr. John Tilman now owns this land. John Svenson made him an offer many years ago and he wasn't about to sell it for 2-3x what it was then worth. He subsequently replatted the land for a 20-30 unit subdivision and attempted to sell lots through a realtor in Conway -- but he has so over-valued the land that to John’s knowledge not a single lot sold. He currently is redeveloping the land -- new gravel road coming off Cargile -- as per his original intent to sub-divide the property. He tells John his plan is now to "leave the property to his children" and as he has leased the land to oil exploration and drilling he is certainly in no financial need to unload the property -- he's actually one of those early Wal-Mart millionaires. Nevertheless, he is probably approachable.
Big Piney Creek:
Treat\Helton’s Farm: Helton’s Farm has been the put-in for private and rental paddlers and fisher-folk for many, many years. Mrs. Helton is past 80 years old and is feeble. She no longer lives on the farm, but her son gathers the $3 access fee on weekends from every paddler who puts on there, and there are many paddlers. There is no telling what will happen when Mrs. Helton passes away. Acquiring access either at Helton’s Farm or in the same area is the second most critical need in the paddling… maybe the first!
Big Piney Creek: Hurricane Creek
Ft. Douglas
Hwy 123
Twin Bridges: There is commercial take-out at Moore Outdoors. They would like to move access across the river for public folks. They own that land, too, and would probably be interested in visiting about some arrangement there.
Spring River : In winter, when campgrounds are closed, there are no convenient take-out points below Sadler Falls. A public take-out access point there would encourage year-round paddling and fishing in that area. An intermediate take-out/put-in would also be very desirable.
Illinois Bayou:
Snow Creek: The Snow Creek run on the Middle Fork of the Illinois Bayou begins at an access point about 2 miles up-stream from the Bayou Bluff Campground. I don’t know who owns that land, but it should be public. It has been used for years and makes a fine access for short runs down the Class II run to the highway and then on down to Hector.
Middle Fork: NoGo
North Fork
Buffalo River:
Boxley
Ponca
Hailstone
Caddo River:
Norman
Caddo Gap
Glenwood
Cossatot River
Crooked Creek
Eleven Point River
Falling Water Creek
Frog
South Fourche La Fave
Kings River
Little Missouri River:
Take-out at Hwy 84
Little Red River:
Archey Fork of Little Red
South Fork Put-in
South Fork Culverts
South Fork Swinging Bridge Takeout
South Fork Hwy 95
Mulberry River:
Above Hwy 23
Below Hwy 23
Ouachita River:
Above Lake Ouachita
Dragover takeout
Saline River:
North Fork
Middle Fork
Strawberry River
White River
Tentative Access Priority List 9-25-08
Cadron Creek:
Within 2 miles Above CCO : In the last 7-10 years, the Cadron has become a primary stream for Central Arkansas paddlers and non-motorized fishing folks. It’s high Class I water, has a number of play-spots and flows when many other streams have lost water levels. It’s close to Little Rock, Conway & Russellville, yet is still fairly unpopulated. Cadron Creek Outfitters (John Svenson) announced this week that he is closing off access through his property. This upper access is the highest priority for replacement in the Central Arkansas area. Recently, there was an ad in the newspaper by a man who owns 100 acres for sale downstream from Guy, AR. I have not checked the actual location, but it holds some promise. He was, however, asking $350,000 for the site and did not seem inclined to split it up. A site further downstream might work better and be had less expensively.
Cadron Creek:
Pinnacle Springs: Several years ago, someone left Mr. Tilman, the property owner, a present of three dead cows at the put-in on his land that paddlers had always used. He gated the access off the bridge and paddlers have ignored it and pulled over the fence since then. I believe there exists a public easement for use of that put-in… but… The original access at Pinnacle Springs was at the southeast corner via the existing gate. The road used to go all the way to a sandy beach about 1-200 yards upstream and from there to the bridge it was open access -- mostly beer drinking and horse shoe flippin' back then. Mr. John Tilman now owns this land. John Svenson made him an offer many years ago and he wasn't about to sell it for 2-3x what it was then worth. He subsequently replatted the land for a 20-30 unit subdivision and attempted to sell lots through a realtor in Conway -- but he has so over-valued the land that to John’s knowledge not a single lot sold. He currently is redeveloping the land -- new gravel road coming off Cargile -- as per his original intent to sub-divide the property. He tells John his plan is now to "leave the property to his children" and as he has leased the land to oil exploration and drilling he is certainly in no financial need to unload the property -- he's actually one of those early Wal-Mart millionaires. Nevertheless, he is probably approachable.
Big Piney Creek:
Treat\Helton’s Farm: Helton’s Farm has been the put-in for private and rental paddlers and fisher-folk for many, many years. Mrs. Helton is past 80 years old and is feeble. She no longer lives on the farm, but her son gathers the $3 access fee on weekends from every paddler who puts on there, and there are many paddlers. There is no telling what will happen when Mrs. Helton passes away. Acquiring access either at Helton’s Farm or in the same area is the second most critical need in the paddling… maybe the first!
Big Piney Creek: Hurricane Creek
Ft. Douglas
Hwy 123
Twin Bridges: There is commercial take-out at Moore Outdoors. They would like to move access across the river for public folks. They own that land, too, and would probably be interested in visiting about some arrangement there.
Spring River : In winter, when campgrounds are closed, there are no convenient take-out points below Sadler Falls. A public take-out access point there would encourage year-round paddling and fishing in that area. An intermediate take-out/put-in would also be very desirable.
Illinois Bayou:
Snow Creek: The Snow Creek run on the Middle Fork of the Illinois Bayou begins at an access point about 2 miles up-stream from the Bayou Bluff Campground. I don’t know who owns that land, but it should be public. It has been used for years and makes a fine access for short runs down the Class II run to the highway and then on down to Hector.
Middle Fork: NoGo
North Fork
Buffalo River:
Boxley
Ponca
Hailstone
Caddo River:
Norman
Caddo Gap
Glenwood
Cossatot River
Crooked Creek
Eleven Point River
Falling Water Creek
Frog
South Fourche La Fave
Kings River
Little Missouri River:
Take-out at Hwy 84
Little Red River:
Archey Fork of Little Red
South Fork Put-in
South Fork Culverts
South Fork Swinging Bridge Takeout
South Fork Hwy 95
Mulberry River:
Above Hwy 23
Below Hwy 23
Ouachita River:
Above Lake Ouachita
Dragover takeout
Saline River:
North Fork
Middle Fork
Strawberry River
White River
Crane
-
Cadron Boy
- .
- Posts: 74
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:19 pm
- Name: John Svendsen
Re: Big Piney Creek access
Cadron Update:
John Tilman has again listed the land at the NE corner of the Pinnacle Springs bridge -- approx. 20 acres for $60K. He has a placed a number of restrictions on the property -- no access from Cargile, erection of privacy fence extending the entire north boundary of the property, etc. which when coupled with 1) propensity for flooding, 2) propensity for vandalism, and 3) overall typography make it unsuitable to be used for many residential or commercial purposes but which have no impact on its value as a "point of access". Offers have been previously made -- some even exceeding the "asking price" -- on the property but it seems new "contingencies" are placed upon the property before closing so that the potential buyers simply "walk". Many of these "contingencies" are put in place to reduce traffic to the site (Tilman's family -- son and daughter -- own adjacent properties and don't want anyone "snooping around"). Nevertheless, the economy is not going to improve any time soon, John Tilman is getting up in years and the kids have no interest in the property per se other than its use as a buffer to assure their privacy. Both Rowlett Realty and myself have been in contact with the AGFC in hopes they would show some interest in securing the property -- we have been pursuing this over the past 3-4 months however without success. They would prefer that someone else purchase the property and then donate a portion of it to the AGFC -- perhaps this is something the ACC can pursue as it offers a convenient place to access the creek in the vicinity of CCO.
John Tilman also owns another 60 acre tract just down stream of Cow Poo Shoals -- a nice little creek runs down the northern edge of this property which John wishes to preserve "as is" -- it is absolutely gorgeous and isn't prone to vandalism! I believe he would "split off" a few acres along this stream if he knew the stream would be preserved within a "conservation easement" and it wouldn't take too much trouble to refine the access to the gravel bar river left without compromising the integrity of the creek. Again the only "contingency" will be in preserving privacy to the north where John Tilman's daughter lives.
Sadly, had the ACC worked with CCO in 1997-98 when the Tilman's petitioned the court to close the access at Pinnacle Springs via Cargile Lane this would be a moot issue today. However with minimal public disapproval and dismissal by the ACC this once public road is now closed and is unlikely to ever be opened again. Fortunately it all worked out to CCO's favor for we were offered over an acre of streamside property in return for withdrawing our plea to retain public access via Cargile Lane. If anyone can recall I stated within this forum at the time the decision not to support CCO in this matter would "come back to haunt the ACC".
As I fade back into the woods -- I encourage the ACC to consider purchasing or otherwise assist interested public and private interests in securing access to the Cadron via John Tilman's property adjacent Pinnacle Springs bridge.
John Tilman has again listed the land at the NE corner of the Pinnacle Springs bridge -- approx. 20 acres for $60K. He has a placed a number of restrictions on the property -- no access from Cargile, erection of privacy fence extending the entire north boundary of the property, etc. which when coupled with 1) propensity for flooding, 2) propensity for vandalism, and 3) overall typography make it unsuitable to be used for many residential or commercial purposes but which have no impact on its value as a "point of access". Offers have been previously made -- some even exceeding the "asking price" -- on the property but it seems new "contingencies" are placed upon the property before closing so that the potential buyers simply "walk". Many of these "contingencies" are put in place to reduce traffic to the site (Tilman's family -- son and daughter -- own adjacent properties and don't want anyone "snooping around"). Nevertheless, the economy is not going to improve any time soon, John Tilman is getting up in years and the kids have no interest in the property per se other than its use as a buffer to assure their privacy. Both Rowlett Realty and myself have been in contact with the AGFC in hopes they would show some interest in securing the property -- we have been pursuing this over the past 3-4 months however without success. They would prefer that someone else purchase the property and then donate a portion of it to the AGFC -- perhaps this is something the ACC can pursue as it offers a convenient place to access the creek in the vicinity of CCO.
John Tilman also owns another 60 acre tract just down stream of Cow Poo Shoals -- a nice little creek runs down the northern edge of this property which John wishes to preserve "as is" -- it is absolutely gorgeous and isn't prone to vandalism! I believe he would "split off" a few acres along this stream if he knew the stream would be preserved within a "conservation easement" and it wouldn't take too much trouble to refine the access to the gravel bar river left without compromising the integrity of the creek. Again the only "contingency" will be in preserving privacy to the north where John Tilman's daughter lives.
Sadly, had the ACC worked with CCO in 1997-98 when the Tilman's petitioned the court to close the access at Pinnacle Springs via Cargile Lane this would be a moot issue today. However with minimal public disapproval and dismissal by the ACC this once public road is now closed and is unlikely to ever be opened again. Fortunately it all worked out to CCO's favor for we were offered over an acre of streamside property in return for withdrawing our plea to retain public access via Cargile Lane. If anyone can recall I stated within this forum at the time the decision not to support CCO in this matter would "come back to haunt the ACC".
As I fade back into the woods -- I encourage the ACC to consider purchasing or otherwise assist interested public and private interests in securing access to the Cadron via John Tilman's property adjacent Pinnacle Springs bridge.
-
Jim Krueger
- .....
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:54 pm
- Location: Benton, AR
Re: Big Piney Creek access
John,
Thanks for posting the update! I hope all is well with you and your family. I for one certainly continue to miss hearing from you on a regular basis, as in the past.I thoroughly enjoyed the varied topics, and many conversations we had , floating and fishing for sure, but so many others ranging from history, geology, art, music, you name it. Take care, and I'll hope to see you again!
Best Regards
Caddo Boy
Jim
Thanks for posting the update! I hope all is well with you and your family. I for one certainly continue to miss hearing from you on a regular basis, as in the past.I thoroughly enjoyed the varied topics, and many conversations we had , floating and fishing for sure, but so many others ranging from history, geology, art, music, you name it. Take care, and I'll hope to see you again!
Best Regards
Caddo Boy
Jim
-
Jim Krueger
- .....
- Posts: 1867
- Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:54 pm
- Location: Benton, AR
Re: Big Piney Creek access
John,
I can't seem to contact you via a PM on this board, so please contact me via my email when it's convenient sometime, I just wanted to visit further. Sorry, I've resisted using Facebook thus far.
Best Regards
Jim
jm.krueger@att.net
I can't seem to contact you via a PM on this board, so please contact me via my email when it's convenient sometime, I just wanted to visit further. Sorry, I've resisted using Facebook thus far.
Best Regards
Jim
jm.krueger@att.net
-
jclaudii
- .
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:25 am
- Name: Jason N
- Location: Russellville, AR
- Contact:
Re: Big Piney Creek access
are there coords or a google map file i can load to see these areas?
Re: Big Piney Creek access
Jason. I have not tried this before, but here is an attempt at an upload of a Google map with the access points.
John
John
- Attachments
-
John Fletcher
You never step into the same river twice.
You never step into the same river twice.
Re: Big Piney Creek access
It'd be nice if Cadron Boy allowed TRT access to Cadron creek for wargames. We need a training ground to get our Spec-OPs team trained to that ragged edge, in removing discards left by civilians. At this time, we do not have access. Hopefully CadronBoy would opt to become an ally of this great army.
Re: Big Piney Creek access
Any chance of developing an access (private or public) just upstream of the traditional Helton field access? Is that Helton's land or some other? Looking at maps it appears that it would be relatively easy if some arrangement for access might be negotiated. That would take care of the river changing issue, and keep access easier for those of us coming down from the north on Hwy 7.
Social Media
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: Amazon [Bot] and 2 guests