People Going to Beech Creek tomorrow.

[okieboater]

ARZach,

well said


Anyhow, fun reading all this back and forth!

Settin here today recovering from extensive prolo therapy (read that as needles deep into the ligaments) to my hip and lower back that over the next few months will hopefully get me back in action

If any of you have torn ligaments, this procedure is better than the operation in my opinion.

[JLEllison]

I know exactly what I'm asking of the group. I'm asking the group to ask an appropriate question before making a decision so that they can make a better one. If they get an answer and feel taking that person is going to cause a greater risk of something unfortunate happening then don't take them. But not even taking the time to ask a question isn't cool. Bad things happen sometimes, and nobody wants to paddle with a sketchball that is going to expose the group to a bad day, but sometimes you end up in situations where you want to go places and boat, but don't know the people that are going. The group that is going should take it upon themselves to get information before saying sorry dude, I don't like your boat.

[panicman]

So spill it. What kind of boat is it?

If its a Jackson I completely understand the turndown. Beech would have a field day with it.

[Benji]

Zachary I think all were saying is maybe folks should be a little more inquisitive before making assumptions. As for Nicks injury, thats a bummer, I was there the day big Ryan broke his arm on Beech. These things happen, obviously to skilled boaters even. We all accept the risks everytime we get in the boat!(Any type of water) If said boater accepts these risks, that is their decision as far as im concerned. As far as me calling people out I dont believe I did at all, I know the boaters who turned him away and last I checked didnt have any beef with any of them. I just said it was lame IMO,( and we all know what they say about opinions), and the guy could handle himself. If that bothers anyone then im sorry but we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[ARzach]

You know I love ya Ben! I didn't mean to imply that YOU were calling people out on the internet, I just thought that assuming the boat was the only reason that a group might not have wanted to take on a tag-along that day seemed like it was missing a few additional factors that I would wager were more relevant.


James - Obviously I wasn't there, so maybe I should shut up, but I just think calling people out on the internet when you may or may not have put yourself in their shoes first is lame. It sounds like you are not from around here, and I think it is awesome that folks are coming in from out of state to paddle our little creeks! The whole situation sounds like a real bummer, and I wish you had gotten to see Beech 'cause it's a good one. Around Arkansas, 9 times out of 10 it is safe to assume that someone that this very small group of creek boaters doesn't already know, showing up with a playboat to a creek that doesn't really lend itself to playboats (generally speaking) is probablly going to be a liability. Someone help me out here if I'm aiming low, but I would estimate there are only 30-40 people, at most, that are paddling regularly in the state and paddle creeks as difficult as Beech or the like, so most of us at least know OF each other, and it is VERY uncommon for out-of-staters to show up. Add that to a short window of daylight, and I understand why someone wouldn't sacrifice a lot of their time to figure out whether or not you would be worth that gamble. If it were 10 a.m. when you guys were getting ready to run shuttle I'd about bet my paycheck that we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Yes, this is an individual sport and you get to make your own judgements on what you can/cannot handle in what boat, but that coin has two sides. On one, you have individuals who can paddle Beech in playboats and feel confident about it. On the other side, you have a group that doesn't want, or have time, to gamble that your word is good (I've had plenty of issues with people who say they've ran this/that/what-have-you that didn't have any clue what they were doing out there) and that you are not going to put their group into a situation that would involve the above logistical/physical nightmare of having a major break-down in a very remote creek... close to dark... on a stormy night... It sucks that your side of the coin wasn't the one that won out this time, but I can't bring myself to blame a group for being conservative or for making a quick judgement on the fly given the circumstances.

I know s**t happens to great boaters all the time. That's precisely why a group wouldn't want an unknown factor. I know I like to know the odds, or at least feel pretty confident in the odds, late in the day, on a rushed descent of a creek that has seeemed to beat up great boaters at least one run out of every year that it has been ran. Wouldn't you want to hedge your bets and give your team the best liklihood of success, including avoiding adding extra time to the shuttle standing around trying to decipher whether or not an unknown boater, with a boat that exposes anyone to additional carnage because of its size, can hack it?

That being said, I hope you're still around to enjoy what's left of this wonderful week of boating, and I hope to see both of you gents on the H2O in the next 48 or so hours - hopefully twice :-p

Sorry for the essay folks!



--Z

[JohnB]

I read this with a lot of interest. I'm an old school boater and have had the opportunity to do Beech. In our case, the "leader" was sketchy and my partner and I had to pick our way down without much guidance. I've also hooked up with folks at the put-in only to find that they were not up to the task. The fact is that nobody owes anybody they don't know a spot in their group. I've had to fire folks and send them packing out with boat-on-shoulder and, by then, neither of us were happy with how our day was going. Lighten up. Everybody's first obligation is to their own safety and it is their decision, and only theirs, to make the call as to whether they think you might compromise that.

[justin.payne]

Well said Zach and John.

[Benji]

You got all the way to the put in before you realized they werent up to the task? Could they not put on their own sprayskirt or something?! Or did you procrastinate asking a few simple questions??? I completely understand people not wanting to take on a new boater, thats quite all right it really is. However its not how I roll. Had I been in that situation and been approached for guide and shuttle service id imagine it would of gone like this:What are some of the harder runs youve done in the last 2 years? Are you comfortable on tight,technical,swift class 3-4, are you willing to spend a cold,wet,miserable night in the woods if you screw up because I WILL NOT be searching for you, and most important, do you have beer to drink? If he failed to answer my questions the way I thought they needed to be then I would of politely said sorry this aint for you and maybe you should go run the Hailstone or Boxley run instead. Which we all know is not a bad alternative by any means. This is just an opinion had I been in that scenario and by no means do I expect anyone to agree with it! I think ive said all I can on this topic and hope you all have a wonderful weekend of paddling.

[mgood]

A lot of opinions from a lot of people who weren't there.

I wasn't there, don't know who said what, and don't really care. The parties involved know how they feel and they surely don't need another input that doesn't know the skill or experience of either party. Let's let this topic die and all move on, cool?

If I wanted to read people fight then I would go over to boatertalk.

[ARzach]

James, as I said before I wasn't there so I probablly should've just shut up. After talking to Ben, I realized that my best guess as to the scenario was not quite what happened. I appologize for speaking from an outsiders perspective. It does sound like the situation was a bit different than how I would've handled it had I been in the groups shoes.

That being said, I agree with John, noone owes anybody a spot in their group regardless of their reasons. I certainly am not going to turn anyone down if they have the skills and want to boat with me, but each person gets to make their own call based on their own priorities. Next time, I hope you run into a group that I'm a part of, 'cause Beech is awesome.

mgood, I didn't realize we were fighting so much as discussing... but I agree, this horse is dead :-p



--Z

[JLEllison]

It's all good. I was just pretty upset because, well... I wanted to go creeking. Thanks for taking the time to talk it out, but at this point it's water under a bridge that will hopefully be covered up with more water soon.

James

[cpresoz]

Well said, James. We're men and we get pi$$ed when we feel like we're being judged, but in the end, we can look past all that and have a heck of a good time doing what we love.

[perspective7]

Beech is on my list, but after jacking up my shoulder on upper Richland last week at ~4.4 I think it will be a while before I give er' a try...Not out of the socket, but enough to keep me from paddling for a while without a lot of pain. Never had a high brace do that to me, but now I know...Hope you have a speedy recovery!