Beware of southwest paddler

[ROBERT GEORGE SCHARNHORST]

i have been saying this for years and i meet canoeman down at his place on the guadalope. his info is for referance only.. he has not paddled all the rivers he writes about nor has tom kennon. i have yet to find any paddling info that was 100% corret. use thier info as a starting point. do your own researce, your scouting, your paddling and write your own book. thats what i'm doing.

[Wildwood]

Whether they have paddled it or not, they could at least get the location of the stream correct. Better to have no information than incorrect information.

[fishhomer75]

What Wildwood said!

[Canoeman]

fishhomer75, I am truly sorry that you found inaccuracies on Southwest Paddler, and even more so that you were not man enough to just notify me so that I could correct them rather than calling names and acting like a spoiled child.

It is not my intention to provide inaccurate information, and I just wish that I had the time and money to constantly paddle every river to update things. A lot of my information comes from other sources including the official website of the Great State of Arkansas (arkansas.com), where I just found a link to the Saline River on one that SHOULD be pointing to the Spring River.

http://www.arkansas.com/places-to-go/la ... aspx?id=15

On the above link click "Waterway Information for the Spring River" and see where it takes you.

I never claimed to be THE paragon by which other paddlers are compared, as some of you seem to suggest. Years ago, I did use a kayak paddle in my canoes, but what does that matter except to be bunch of elitists who think they are the definitive example of "how it is properly done"? I do not remember ever seeing a law written that demands a canoe be paddled using a single blade paddle. In fact, around the world that is a common practice other than in Canada, and now in the USA.

I used a double blade paddle because it was a lot faster than a single blade paddle, and where I could race using a double blade paddle I was MUCH faster than comparable paddlers using single blades. Two years before your scathing comments I had ceased using a double blade paddle and gone exclusively to ZRE carbon fiber paddles, but I did that out of personal choice, so now I suppose that you can denigrate me for using carbon in whitewater.

For years, I openly asked ACC members to send me information about Arkansas rivers and got not one single response. I trusted information that appeared on the arkansas.com website that was apparently inaccurate, just as in the example above here in Febraury, 2012.

I have a suggestion for you - if you do not have confidence in the information on Southwest Paddler, then don't use it! I am sure that you have written and made accessible a much more accurate and up-to-date resource for other paddlers. And, as to river difficulty ratings, if you understand the true definitions, then you already know that class ratings are written with the novice paddler in mind, not the experienced whitewater paddler to whom something may seem rather pedestrian.

I personally knew people who died on the 'Tot, so I stand by my comment about surviving it. A couple of them were, by the way, "experienced Arkansas paddlers."

Next time, try being a man and contact me directly. I will always make every effort to confirm and correct mistakes as quickly as possible. It probably chaps your butt that Southwest Paddler had over 21 million visitors for each of the last four or five years, and that most users of the guide find the information extremely accurate, as exemplified by some of the comments published in the "Visitor Comments" section of the guide.

I apologize for being three years late to this discussion - I just found it today while doing some research on Arkansas rivers.

[Deuce]

Wait a minute... Am I?.... Oh, sorry. Thought for a second I had logged onto the Buzz!

[tomOzarkVideo]

I'm going to chime in since this has been dredged up.

THANK YOU CANOEMAN!!!
I have used your site many times and appreciate your efforts.
If i find something inconsistent, I will let you know from now on.

I have run a few runs that i wouldn't have without your info.

[prophet]

btw, anyone know who to contact about the Arkansas Floater's Kit found at Arkansas visitor centers? i'd like to visit with the person who thought suggesting the East Fork of the Illinois Bayou was a good idea to share with people getting paddling tips from a rest stop. i'm hoping they can suggest a recurring nightmare brochure

[Canoeman]

Tom, thanks a million! It is always a pleasure hearing that somebody benefitted from the efforts we make publishing Southwest Paddler. It is a constant effort to build and maintain this site, which I began in 1996, and first published in 1997.

Right this minute I am going back to the Eleven Point page and researching current access points. In a few minutes I will update that page with GPS locations for those who have and know how to use a GPS to find exact places to access the river. According to the arkansas.com website these are all currently available public access points.

Your comment is most appreciated, and we will always welcome new information about any river.

[ROBERT GEORGE SCHARNHORST]

i think if your going to have a paddling website or write a book about paddling u sould have paddled and checked out said rivers. even ton kennons books have mistakes, i have paddled rivers from fl. to utah, from tx. to canada. some day i might write a book but first i will paddle every river in that state. hopefully after this spring i can finish up with all the ark. rivers ( with the exception of upper richland, falling water, hailstone,and baker). i also use a double blade paddle with my mohawk.

[Clif]

the paddler guide..aka arkansas.com is old and some big time boo boos. I have a version of some of this like 15 years old and still reads the same. Deff some errors

[davidbob]

I hate to jump in here for a couple of reasons. One, I don't know the identity of the original poster and certainly mean him no disrespect. Two, I have recently (and uncharacteristically) steered clear of board controversies.

I don't know Mark McCord well, but I have met him on the river and discussed information about rivers (the Glover and Mtn Fork in S.E. Ok. come to mind). I know that he sought out info about those rivers, and generally seemed to be trying to get it right vis-a-vis what is posted on Southwest Paddler. So, my experience with canoeman is that he conscientiously tries thru SW Paddler to provide accurate information about rivers in this area to boaters.

[WPC]

I think it was said best that the Soutwest Paddler is a "resource" in preparing for a trip. We are all responsible for our own actions, so we should be doing our own homework before heading down river. I learn something new about the river every time I make a trip.

As a beginning paddler, I have talked to Marc numerous times about different rivers and he has always provided me with information to help me decide if my skill level was appropriate. While some may think he is too cautious in some of his descriptions, those of us just learning are thankful. It has kept me safe to paddle another day.

I appreciate every opportunity I have to connect with paddlers from all over. It just expands my resources and allows me to use their "lessons learned" and learn my own.

[Richard]

Ahhhh, the Medina and San Marcos. My boyhood rivers. I lived in Castroville and San Marcos as a boy.

I too have found errors on the Southwest Paddler site but I still find it to be a valuable resource. Thank you Marc for what you have done. I first found out about the site reading Canoe and Kayak magazine shortly after getting my first canoe and have been a fan ever since.

I think I know the Buffalo about as well as or better than most people and would be happy to be your goto person for updates on the Buffalo. Concerning the Eleven Point, as Cowper mentioned, rivers change and the Eleven Point is no different. I paddle it every year and as a result of floods within the last few years, it has become more technical than in years past.
Mark, you may already have this but I would suggest having a way for people to make comments for each river. That way things could be kept more current. Kind of a river specific message board.

Speaking of Current, When you use to rank rivers. . . (1) Current, (2) Green and the Buffalo way down the list. . . I detected some bias. The Buffalo is obviously the best paddling river in the country, world, galaxy, universe. :)

[Canoeman]

Richard, I do not recall ranking rivers other than to give stats on the most popular visits to Southwest Paddler according to my site statistics reports. I love the Buffalo, and paddle it two or three times a year, usually from Ponca to Rush, but the last two years have included Boxley to Ponca due to the very high waters. I was fortunate enough to be there in May when it really rained, and we got to do those runs.

Last year, we started at Ponca and went to Rush, then came back and ran from Boxley to Ozark in 5 hours because it started raining heavily as we took out at Rush, and it rained most of the night. The next day we awoke to water five feet higher at Ozark than when we went to bed the night before. We were going to the Mulberry on our way home, but since the Buffalo was up we headed to Boxley, and ran from Boxley to Ponca in less than one hour.

I have contemplated a message board for information input, but you and I already know what results from message boards, and they end up like this one, or worst still, like p-net. They also attract all sorts of people who have nothing to say regarding paddling, but rather promote things that are not at all relevant and are sometimes downright vulgar, insulting or racist/religious/political. I really do not have the time or desire to moderate a board and clean up all the trash talk.

My e-mail address is widely listed all over Southwest Paddler, and I have openly encouraged people to send new information anytime. The problem is that I only get about one or two responses per year from paddlers letting me know of errors they may find. There is nothing I can do to compel contributions, and I would not do that if I could. I encourage participation, and when significant contributions are made, such as from Steve King on several Missouri rivers or Harry Dundore on the Deso/Gray section of the Green in Utah, I give a by-line credit to the contributor as a way to thank him or her for their contributions. If that contributor has a website, then I will also provide a link to it as a show of appreciation.

Now, as much as I love the Buffalo, I do not share your opinion of it being the best place to paddle, but that is a personal choice. For me, the Rio Grande comes first, and the Lower Canyons run is my personal favorite, followed closely by the Green in Utah (especially the Gates of Lodore and Deso/Gray.) And, flat though they may be, the Teslin, Big Salmon and Yukon in Canada ain't bad, either! And, I love paddling the Black Swamp in the Big Woods of the Cache and Bayou deView around Brinkley, Arkansas.

Thanks for your comments, and thank you for using Southwest Paddler.

[okieboater]

For what it is worth, I do a lot of river web site river surfing and the only descriptions I trust much are Fish's on his Ozark Creeks info page.

Having said that, I enjoy all these sites descriptions for what they are worth. That is what ever the rater thinks at the time or what they have heard and base their rating on.

I also appreciate the time the folks devote to sharing river information. It takes a lot of work to keep these things running much less current.

Here is my take on river ratings and how they are determined.

The entire deal is subjective and depends on the time of year the river is run and the skill of the boaters.

Example: The first time I ran the Yampa it was maybe 3k and a very mellow float trip. The next time I ran it at some 13k, the rapids were a handful and Split Mountain was big time for me and my skill level at the time. My rating of the Yampa changed a bunch from one year to the next.

What I am attempting to say is even if a person does their best to rate a river run - the result may or may not be even close when the reader actually runs the river. Our river rating system is not very precise to begin with and the conditions can change dramatically over time or from day to day depending on the weather.

My thanks to canoeman for doing what he does as I have visited his site and enjoyed same a bunch over the years.