there messin with us

[waterhog]

Ok somtihing isnt right here as soon as it gets to that sweet spot theyll drop it off why are they doin this any speculation its killn me we need to do somting

http://www.swt-wc.usace.army.mil/images ... ST.qt.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Cowper]

What range of cfs is the "sweet spot" for Wister?

If you're talking about that slow drop off from 7200 cfs slowly dropping towards the upper 6000's range, that is caused because they simply set the gates at a given opening, then as the lake levels drop, there is less pressure to force water through the opening. So you get a slow downward trend in the CFS release, because they aren't adjusting the gates to compensate. Their page shows they generally pick a setting, and then stay with it for at least a day.

So the real answer to your question is, they are probably completely unaware that there is a "recreational" consideration to what cfs they pick for release. They know when the lake is too full or too empty; they know how much water causes downstream flooding and so on. They probably even know what levels the local fishermen would prefer. But they just don't know that there is a "sweet spot" that brings "tourists" like us to the area, for recreational purposes.

They might be willing to change; it depends a lot on the personality of whoever is in charge, and on how good a spokesperson you can find to go talk with them. Initially there will be resistance to adding another complicating factor to the decision process. But if you can at least get a dialog started, there is hope...

[waterhog]

No cowper i was not talkin about the slow drop off i was talking about the sharp drop they made last week when the levels were high and was thinkin they were gonna do the same this time.

I hav been approched twice in my trips to wister by park officials and a ranger and havin them say they thought it was dangerous for a number of reasons maybe they asked them not to release at that certain level so that solves there worry prob and they can sleep safe at night knowing they kept some dirtbag kayakers from dying on the almighty wister wave of death anyways.

I do believe we need someone to go talk to them being nice and havn a good prsonality is only part of what needs to happen we need to bribe find out what they like football, baseball, golf ect. then we can bribe.

[FarPastGone]

I am with Chuck on this one. I don't think we have had any flows like we did for that week plus in November 2009 sine then. I can remember one chance last year, but I think the Poteau was so high it backed up the tributary Wister is on. Now granted eastern OK has had drought conditions for a portion of this year, there have been several chances for good flows since Nov. 2009.

I hope I am not mis-quoting but I am pretty sure Sean, a boater in NWA from Colorado, talked to the dam operator at some point and was told they were going to try and avoid flows preferable for kayakers because safety concerns.

- Matt

[Cowper]

That sounds very believable to me. Out East, for years now the value of recreational releases has been understood, and concerns about the safety of outdoor recreation has been well handled without the need close everything off. But many years ago when we tried to talk to the Corps folks at Broken Bow about possible recreational releases in Spillway Creek at Beaver's Bend, their safety concerns about our ability to handle a low volume Class II+ (or low III?) were part of what kept it from ever happening, along with an equal measure of concern that we would interfere too much with the existing primary use, fishing.

Based on what others are saying, I think it is fully possible that yes, they ARE intentionally avoiding the levels that would attract kayakers.

Is there someone willing to put forth the level of effort it will take to communicate and attempt to change those attitudes? You might get lucky, as occurred at Dierks when folks were very open to discussion, but more likely expect it to take multiple meetings stretching over months, or even years. If you're really lucky, you might be able to get involved in relicensing discussions for the dam, as was done with Remmel / Rockport.

I find it interesting that there is a Wikipedia entry for Wister Lake. I'd suggest that if anyone is registered to contribute to Wikipedia, go edit it to add some brief description that shows a kayaker playing the Wister wave and note that some come for that, not just to fish and boat on the lake above the dam. Consider choosing a glassy surfing shot that doesn't look too scary to the uninformed. The goal would be to simply note that kayakers do regulary enjoy the wave; it is something that already happens, not something "new" we're asking for permission to do.

[Cowper]

So the real answer to your question is, they are probably completely unaware that there is a "recreational" consideration to what cfs they pick for release. They know when the lake is too full or too empty...

Some good news from Matt (FarPastGone, temporarily off-line) - a dialog has been opened! He found some folks to talk to, and learned that the "decision makers" in the District office were just unaware that anybody cared when or how much they released, from a recreational point of view. He pointed them to some internet videos of folks surfing the waves, and they responded favorably; the District Manager had no idea that was going on, and thought what she was seeing was cool!

Their past management has been based solely on maximizing the use of the lake for its primary purpose: flood control. So when the lake is full of water, they dump it at the first opportunity that doesn't create downstream flooding, that way, they have maximum storage capacity when the next rain comes. The timing of their "cut offs" in later afternoon wasn't because they saw boaters playing in the afternoon; it was because someone working in an office far away goes home at 4, so they looked at lake levels and made one final adjustment to the gate settings before quitting for the day.

Matt says he is going to follow up later; while flood control is going to remain the primary consideration, there might be things they could do like letting us know the schedule in advance, or releasing on a Saturday instead of mid-week, if they can look at the forecast and be pretty sure no major rains are going to hit before they get the lake level down again. In other cases, they might be able to do things like release 5,000 cfs for 6 hours, instead of 2,500 cfs for 12 hours. Either way releases the same amount of water and gets the lake to the desired level.

I think Matt is going to follow-up some more to see what is possible. In the meantime, what can other boaters do? If you play at Wister, be nice to EVERYBODY, and pick up any litter you see. Play the "we're good people" card for all it is worth!

[Sir Kayakalot]

Sounds good! Thanks for relaying the message Cowper. Hats off to Matt for working on this.


Tommy