The Future of Freestyle...

[Shep]

With less and less young people learning to solo canoe, the numbers that switch to c-1 are dropping too. I'd put money that its dying out quickly, which pretty much proves the disadvantages outweigh its pros. Who knows a young c-1er?

With all due respect, I think you are completely wrong. Is C-boating a much smaller proportion than Kayaking? Sure! Is it dying? Hardly. C-Boating is a lot like Tele skiing. You are actively choosing to make your life harder for (mostly) aesthetic reasons, but tele skiing is alive and well, my friend! The Lost Tribe in Tennessee is a great example of a vibrant, growing group of YOUNG open boaters. Outward Bound in Maine and North Carolina are smaller, but still chruning out canoeists! Personally, I love paddling an open boat, but I'm willing to admit that there is some big water that I am probably capable of running in a C1 but probably wouldn't consider in my current quiver of OC's (Kennebec Gorge in Maine, off the top of my head.) Then again, with new designs like Esquif's L'Edge, the realm of big water open boating may be growing faster than any of us yet knows.

So, don't tell me the C-boat party is over if you ain't even planning on showing up!

Shep

[okieboater]

C1 boaters in the South East (I grew up in North Georgia) were instrumental in opening up a lot of the big time creek runs in that area. They were the super stars of the boating world in those days.

I started out in canoes and still love to paddle them, due to shoulder issues I never got good enough to do hard class 3 in open boats. Never did much boating in C1's but have always admired C boaters.

I did switch over to kayaks pretty early on. And, admit that in my opinion kayaks are easier to handle in rapids mainly due to the two bladed paddle and body position in the boat. This can be argued endlessly and could be a fun thread to see started.

Some years ago, I paddled a lot with Dr Bob and made a lot of the trips down to Ecuador with him. I stopped these trips a few years ago but Bob still does them. From swapping emails with the DeRhiemer's I understand Bob and his C1 has moved up to the really hard stuff down there. I know when I was kayaking with him, he ran every thing the kayaks did and did it with style and grace. Always fun to watch Bob in the drops and his ability to move that single blade where ever it needed to be always impressed me.

I enjoy watching C1 boaters run rapids and even more run slalom courses. Heck, I enjoy watching K1 boater running slalom as well. I am not a slalom boater but feel that even us would be creekers and river runners can benefit big time from running gates in our big tupperwear kayaks. A great way to work out even on flat water.

It is all good and no matter canoe, kayak, C1 or raft - your choice and get out there and have fun. For the sake of the sport, I wish we had more young boaters giving the enclosed C1 craft a chance.

If you really want to see something neat watch the C2 folks run slalom. Seems like NOC used to have a enclosed C2 glass boat on display from the early days. The skill, co ordination, power and communication these teams display is really top notch!

We need rain big time, and keeping fingers crossed. All we see coming in to Tulsa area is dry wind these days. Historically, mid november has been pretty decent for rain in the Mena Arkansas area and I hope it happens.

Hang in there spanke, if you can get a C1 out of the fish, that will be big time news and be sure to post it here. And, shep - thanks for the update, I did not know we still have C1 young folks out there.

[A Savage spanke]

OkieBoater- I totally agree with everything that you said, except that I'm pretty sure Shep doesn't c-1.

Shep- With all due respect, you are wrong, and heres why.

Comparing it to Telle Skiing: People that telle started out as skiers, got bored with it and wanted more of a challenge and there are definite advantages to being able to lift your heels. There will never be a kayaker who gets comfortable on class V and then says, time for a canoe (and I can't see any advantage to paddling water in a canoe besides an icechest)! So that comparison is bunk

I can think of two open boaters that I've know that have run significant stuff, Dr. Bob and Sammy. I don't know anyone under the age of 30 that solo canoes, and I meet people getting into kayaking all the time. How many young open boaters do you know?

And I have been to the party, I started off canoeing, my parents would make me sit on the ice chest between the thwarts. I still have two buffalo's (ones next to my apartment I'm typing from). And I had a 12 foot mohawk shaman for four years before selling it for gas money to get back to Tennessee. I rolled a c-1 my first try thanks to Ryan Center. And I'm confident I could have rolled it back at wister had my skirt not blown. I also rolled both of your canoes on and off side at the pool two weeks ago. And after being in lots of different canoes, I can safely say there is no advantage to running hard water in them. (OMG is that why canoers tear apart kayaks to c-1?!?!?!) And since less and less people are canoeing, less and less people are switching and yes it is dying out. Once again if you don't believe me name a c-1er that is under 30. I'll name ten kayakers

[A Savage spanke]

And after attending the "party". I'll be happy to never attend another one with that many dudes on their knees, not my thing man

[ARzach]

YO give me a boat and I will paddle it! JUST NOT ON MY KNEESSS

Because they're too sore from what your sponsors make you do?

[PROBOATER]

KID GOT JOKES! NAAH SON

run burl sufer the scorn aka bad knes sumtin u don know bout your sic pervrted self turnin tricks got bad memories u tryin to surpres wit wack a** jokes. you da joke

[Roger]

spanke, you know Dr. Dale?

[Shep]

I'm pretty sure Shep doesn't c-1.

Don't own one. Have paddled a couple models in water ranging from Class II-IV. Interested in getting one, but also interested in getting a lot of other boats too.

and there are definite advantages to being able to lift your heels.

I am a tele skier, and I will state that any advantage you get from being able to lift your heels is offset by people with alpine-touring bindings, except for the aesthetic of the turn.

There will never be a kayaker who gets comfortable on class V and then says, time for a canoe

Alden Bird, author of "Let It Rain" (THE definitive guidebook for creeking from NY to Maine to Quebec), is a bad-A kayaker (he must be, because he ran 90+% of the stuff in his book), and has also become a helluva C-1er, from what members of the VT paddlers club tell me.

(and I can't see any advantage to paddling water in a canoe besides an icechest)!

That's exactly my point! I'm not saying Canoeing is easier, or in most ways superior to kayaking. I'm saying it provides a unique aesthetic that Kayaking does not. Kayaking provides different advantages, including having a lower center of gravity, and a blade on both sides among others. But, man, I love the feeling of whipping into an offside eddy so fast it'll make your head spin, with my canoe laid over so far that water is coming over the gunwale, leaning on a big off-side Duffek. It's just COOL!

If you don't see any aesthetic difference between kayaking and canoeing, we're not even speaking a common language. I'm not telling you you ought to be a canoeist. Heck, if everyone had the same priorities in this world, it'd be awful crowded wherever you wanted to go. But what I'm saying is that there will always be people who appreciate the different aesthetic, and use the tool that matches that.

A whole lot of stuff trimmed from Spanke's response cause it's hammering the same points...

And since less and less people are canoeing, less and less people are switching and yes it is dying out. Once again if you don't believe me name a c-1er that is under 30. I'll name ten kayakers

I just said canoeing is a lot smaller than kayaking. You giving it up does not mean it's dead, or even dying. Frankly, if you look at the numbers for whitewater paddling in general, they are all getting smaller. Again, I believe my reference to Tele skiing is perfect. Sometimes we choose to do something that is harder because we want to, but yeah, we'll probably always be the minority. C'est la vie.

[A Savage spanke]

You forgot to name someone that c-1's that is under 30

[PROBOATER]

my boy sheppie shep b trippin or maybe tippin goin all okieboater wit a page full of word haahaahaa. recration form is 1 down.

[rickyrod]

You forgot to name someone that c-1's that is under 30

Alicia. her dad designs open boats , when she was 12 her dad designed the first open boat for kids and she was doing 20 ft. drops in it . so if new designs for kids are coming out than it's just getting started .
quit picking $#it spanke.

[rickyrod]

and why is there a c1 spot in the worlds championship????of freestyle

[A Savage spanke]

Ok sorry, I bow to the words of ricky rod, I'm done

[Shep]

Okay, A guy I worked with at Outward Bound C-1's well more than 50% of the time... Looks like this years Green Race is going to have a record number of C-1 entries. I assume some of those guys aren't old and decrepit like me (at 32!)

Hope This Helps,
Shep

[rickyrod]

COMON spanke. dont stop I personaly love to read this stuff. you should go c1 in that dagger FX that you paddled back in the day