Co. guide arrested for what?

[v rainwater]

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread582854/pg1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Much love to all of you helpers in our local tragedy, thoughts and prayers for those affected.

Vernon

[waterhog]

that makes me sick to my stomach that freakin sheriff needs to be yanked from any power position i bet he doesnt have any whitewater exper at all good thing that raft guide didnt listen that little girl might not have made it

when your on the river time is of the essence wasteing that can be fatal

[panicman]

read the many comments on mountainbuzz about this incedent. I think there is more to the story than that article.

[Gink]

Yeah another example where folks are making conclusions based upon hearsay --

1) The guide, Snodgrass -- who was in charge of guiding the boat in question when it flipped -- had totally lost sight of the girl. She had floated way downstream beyond his line of sight and could have easily have drowned at any time prior to securing herself on a rock downstream. It was only upon arrival of the rescue team that Snodgrass was able to locate the girl.

2) The girl was safe, out of the water, and in no clear danger at the time the guide, Snodgrass is reported to have "saved" her. Swimming out to a girl perched on a rock near the opposite bank had nothing to do with saving this girl -- absolutely nothing.

3) Snodgrass was specifically and repeatedly requested by the Sheriff and members of the Clear Creek County Swiftwater Rescue Team not to swim over to the other bank -- and what does he do? Jumps in and swims over to the girl in what I consider a CYA move. During a rescue operation one general caveat is for everyone to "stay out of the water" if the victim is already safe. You must understand that to the sheriff's Snodgrass -- the guide in charge of the raft that flipped and placed the girl at risk -- is as much part of the problem as part of the solution.

Tis 'another example in which the power of authorities -- be they the police, park rangers or an out-of-state swift water rescue team -- are denigrated by those ignorant of the facts, those who have a "beef" against any and all authority and those who rely solely on third-party accounts of what transpired on a river hundreds of miles away.

Clairvoyance, concern or righteousness -- sometimes it's difficult to tell them apart.

[turboturtle]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and this is my $0.02
This post was taken from page ten of thirteen. Many thoughts and opinions out there.
You all know what they say about opinions. :roll:
Please read the whole link on Mtn Buzz before assuming.
http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/ ... 31295.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Old 1 Day Ago #98
AVAColoradoRafting

Buena Vista/Breckenridge, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1997
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 9

Thanks Boaters--Please contact the Sheriff
Hi everyone,

AVA has had an incredible outpouring of support from fellow boaters as well as our guests in response to this situation. Thank you to everyone!

We are asking that people PLEASE contact Sheriff Don Krueger to ask him to drop the charges against Ryan Snodgrass.

His email is dkrueger@clearcreeksheriff.us

His phone # is 303-679-2376 .

Thanks!

Deanna
AVA

[Gink]

Let's flip the mirror and take a look at Arkansas Valley Adventures and their guides like Snodgrass.

Anyone look to see how many people have died while under their care? Let's see how about the young 12 year old boy who died in July 2000 while rafting with AVA, or 47-year old Brian Kirkwood who died while training with AVA or the 37 mother of two Raquel Stiles who drowned in 2007 after her raft capsized, or.... This isn't AVA's first rodeo.

AVA is big business -- some 23000 clients per year -- big bucks and Duke Bradford is pocketing some very serious change -- if you think the lodge is grand check out his house -- wow! And despite claims of that the "quality of AVA’s equipment is unsurpassed" -- did you take a close look at the girl's PFD and helmet -- if that be "unsurpassed" well I must have missed something for it looks like poorly fitting, commercially used, mediocre gear to me.

And Duke is milking up this latest publicity to the tilt and redirecting all responsibility as far away from AVA as possible. And the public and the liberal media are eatin' it up. But as has been said: there are two sides to this story, many opinions and far too many assumptions -- but one thing is evident: Rafting with AVA is a dangerous and deadly endeavor -- a fact well known by the Clear Creek County Swift Water Rescue Team.

[SteveGabbard]

Wow. Gink you have some info. What is your affiliation?

[SteveGabbard]

http://boatertalk.com/forum/BoaterTalk/1052181921/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is a post of what went down written by the guide supposedly

[waterhog]

Anytime you put on the river it is a deadly endeavor gink whitewater is dangerous in case you didnt know everybody that puts on a river takes a chance and i guaruntee that is on the paper you sign at AVA the fact that there raft flipped does not mean it was the guides fault on the river crap happens and you deal with it in no way is the when you have a scared victim like that you need to get to them fast
gink yes people die in whitewater that is part of what makes it exciting if you cant deal with that then maybe you should go live under a rock

[panicman]

that boatertalk description from the guide sounds pretty believable of the situation.

[Gink]

Yikes I didn't mean to get anyone upset -- my only goal here was to come to the defense of the Clear Creek Swiftwater Rescue Team and sheriff's department which has been taking a beatin' by the paddling community in their many forums.

As a forest manager and fire suppression technician who has spent many years living in Utah and Idaho -- and most recently Wyoming until semi-retiring to Arkansas -- I know a thing or two about both danger and search and rescue endeavors -- perhaps more than many of those who are posting comments based solely upon conjecture and hearsay-based suppositions. I know there is a general distrust of government and its civil employees but you folks seem to think every ranger, every policeman, every rescue team who is trying to do their job in protecting the safety and welfare of the public are nothing more than incompetent buffoons -- and that is simply not the case.

And as to your comment "people die in whitewater that is part of what makes it exciting" -- then we have a far different opinion of what we find exciting for I don't find death or the fear of death all that exciting. I've "been there, done that" many times over -- if that's what rocks your boat, fine -- but to tell folks to "go live under a rock" simply because they don't agree with you nor find death exciting .... says a lot about your character.

[unicorn]

You know what says a lot about character Gink? The fact that you've been posting on this board for all of one month, and have yet to say anything positive. The fact that you've chosen to lump all boaters together in some sort of anti-authoritarian group. The fact that you, while condemning others for jumping to conclusions, are quick to jump to to the opposite conclusion and then get confrontational when called on your behavior.

I find it hard to believe that you "didn't mean to get anyone upset" when in the very next paragraph say “you folks seem to think every ranger, every policeman, every rescue team who is trying to do their job in protecting the safety and welfare of the public are nothing more than incompetent buffoons." That, sir, is quite frankly insulting and I doubt very much that you didn't intend for it to be so.

Why don't you try a less confrontational tone once in a while?

And incidentally, gink - by definition - means a foolish or incompetent man. So if you desire not to be taken as such (and you may not care) I'd probably try to be a bit friendlier.

[justin.payne]

I wasnt going to get involved, but thank you Ryan. I second that.

[Gink]

Well to say something nice -- I applaud your honesty and being upfront rather than just disparaging me behind my back -- a tactic that is resorted to ever so frequently.

Moreover I apologize in perhaps being overly defensive when it comes to our civil servants, like the "freakin' sheriff" who felt he was simply doing his job in the rescue in which we speak. But IMHO had I come on here and offered more criticism -- and continued the "negativity already so expressed" all would be well. What it boils down to: if I jump on your band wagon and agree with you I can be as negative as I want, say whatever I want, even get downright abusive -- but take a contradictory stand and I am branded as being "negative". You folks -- and that doesn't extend to all paddlers -- need to lighten up and go easier on those who hold disparate views. I used the word before -- "righteous indignation" -- and it so seems to fit... a little humility may be prudent.

Anyway I'm outta here -- never again to grace this forum -- you can keep your little clique of like-minded two-faced individuals who like to disparage and criticize others behind their back simply because they don't share your self-righteous viewpoint. Jimminy!

[Wildwood]

Thanks, guys. I've been saving my .02 worth 'til it adds up to $1 . . .
Jan