Study on white water parks for Louisiana

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RomanLA
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Re: Study on white water parks for Louisiana

Post by RomanLA » Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:23 pm

thyrsus wrote:I for one wouldn't have much use for a whitewater park if ir was further away than one hour's drive.

Sure I'll drive three or four for a day of real whitewater (Cossatot, Richland), and eight or nine for a whole weekend (Ocoee, Nanty) but for someplace that is the L.L. Bean version of a theme park? Not far at all.

David
I've driven about 4 or 5 to go to San Marcos. It's more of a park-and-play though. It's hard to get myself to go that far for so little. It would have to be pretty impressive to get me to drive to Shreveport. I hate that drive. lol

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Re: Study on white water parks for Louisiana

Post by Drifter » Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:22 pm

Fish wrote:Again, when trees and animals in the city are threatened, usually a lot of folks show up to protest. But when far larger numbers of trees and animals in far wilder and more remote places are threatened, it's hard to get people to pay attention, let alone show up there.
Thats because many city folks don't really care what happens to wild places. They never see it; they don't go there. Out of sight, out of mind. Also, many times there is lots of MONEY and SPECIAL FAVORS that come to certain parties as a benefits from the destruction of the aforementioned trees and animals. These folks don't want anyone questioning the destructive practices as it may affect their pocketbooks/agendas. In the beginning, it shocked me that other "outdoor" people would condone the destruction of our public lands while simultaneously condemning similar destructions in other areas of nature. As far as this subject is concerned, nothing surprises me any more. Quite disappointing.

Like tomcat said, if they can build a ski-slope in the desert (Dubai) why not a whitewater park in Louisiana or Texas?

If anyone is concerned about the "destructive environmental effects" of this type of urban project, I suggest they turn OFF their air conditioners NOW. That would save a whole lot more electricity than a whitewater park would ever use by a long shot.

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Re: Study on white water parks for Louisiana

Post by Lifejacket » Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:56 pm

RomanLA wrote:In defense of parks in general, look at what climbing gyms have done for rock climbing. As much as traditional climbers tend to be against them, they have done wonders for the sport and many people have made the jump from gyms to crags. In fact, gyms are the biggest source of new climbers.
I will start by saying I might visit, because I like Shreveport. I like the river front, shops, race track and of course the casinos, so the addition of a whitewater park in terms of tourism could be a real plus. It would allow me a chance to do some paddling while the girlfriend goes shopping.
However, I am not saying I agree with a whitewater park. In reference to your climbing wall example, I strongly disagree with the argument that whitewater parks would help improve or expand ww paddleing. My problem with this argument is that I do not see any problems with how sport is right now. I don't like the thought of expanding the sport to a situation where you have to get in line at put-ins and take-outs.
Yellow Extrasport now above a blue Liquid Logic Hoss

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Re: Study on white water parks for Louisiana

Post by Fish » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:02 pm

An argument can be made that things like whitewater parks, climbing walls, artificial ski slopes, etc. introduce lots people to these activities that might not have ever participated in them otherwise. Then some of those people develop an interest in doing those activities in wild settings and then become advocates for protecting those areas. Presumably the behavior of those who don't develop any further interest is not changed, so it does no additional harm. It's an interesting argument, and I've used it before myself.

But it can also be argued that having artificial versions of natural activities such as these promotes the idea that we don't need wild places - we can just have whitewater/rocks/snow "in a can." So this may balance out the above argument. Maybe it's just a break even. Hard to know.

One thing seems clear to me after personally working to protect more than a few acres of wild places over the years: having more people participating in outdoor activities like paddling, climbing, and skiing is a net positive to for the environment in the final analysis. Sure we might be able to love wild places "to death", but this seems to me to be far less of a risk than not having enough people who love those same wild places. The problem of having too many wilderness users tends to naturally govern itself as some people realize the impact and government steps in to limit access to protect the wilderness and also the quality of the wilderness experience for the users. But if a place is unloved and forgotten by most people, when someone inevitably takes an interest in its resources or wants to transform it into something more profitable, its destruction is pretty much guaranteed.

... Fish

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Re: Study on white water parks for Louisiana

Post by hdh » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:13 pm

Again, This just a college student writing a paper.

Athough, A whitewater park here in Looziana might mean fewer cars at the Richland takeout...
Harlan Dickson Hughes.....If you fly with the buzzards at night, you got to soar with the eagles in the morning!!!!!!

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Re: Study on white water parks for Louisiana

Post by Lifejacket » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:18 pm

Fish wrote:An argument can be made that things like whitewater parks, climbing walls, artificial ski slopes, etc. introduce lots people to these activities that might not have ever participated in them otherwise. Then some of those people develop an interest in doing those activities in wild settings and then become advocates for protecting those areas. Presumably the behavior of those who don't develop any further interest is not changed, so it does no additional harm. It's an interesting argument, and I've used it before myself.

... Fish
That is a good point. However, I have seen to many times people that are local and get the sudden urge to go camping. They go to walmart by a cheap tent and come to the mountains, not in a camping area. Not always but most of the time it ends up looking like the the pictures in the River Cleanup Technique for Lee Creek thread. I will admit though that I have gained 2 diffenent tents left by different individuals. I guess they did not want them after they got wet.
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Re: Study on white water parks for Louisiana

Post by Fish » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:28 pm

Yeah, Lifejacket, I've seen that a bunch myself. That's the counter argument, and it's a good one. Anyone who has seen their favorite places junked up by some folks who clearly don't have a lot of love for the wilderness can attest to the risk involved with folks thinking that the wilderness is just a disposable toy. Like I said, I bet whitewater parks generate that mentality, but they also generate folks who dig deeper and really end up loving wild rivers. None of us really knows how that balances out.

Good points on all sides in this thread. Everybody commenting here clearly loves the rivers and the wilderness around them. We're all on the same side, but we won't all agree on what's best for the rivers we love. No surprise there! :)

- Fish

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Re: Study on white water parks for Louisiana

Post by Trismegistus » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:59 pm

"Everybody commenting here clearly loves the rivers and the wilderness around them. We're all on the same side, but we won't all agree on what's best for the rivers we love. No surprise there!"

Shortly after taking over as regional forester for the Pacific Northwest in 1992, John Lowe noted, "There will be lots of different ways of maintaining sustainable ecosystems, and the methods for doing that will generate controversy. Ecosystem management won't take the controversy out of the forest".

Competing interests, contradictory laws and different people with different perceptions, goals and beliefs make it difficult to answer Pinchot's question -- "What is the greatest good?" One thing for certain: debate and discussion are essential to determining how to best manage our public (and private) lands and I can't think of a better place to debate and discuss than here.

Kudos to all -- and that includes the good folks at the USFS, ADEQ and the AGF&C.

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Re: Study on white water parks for Louisiana

Post by Cowper » Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:34 pm

I believe skateboarders go through this same discussion. You've got your "built ramp", play-park folks, and then there are a few that believe real skateboarding occurs only on "natural" surfaces, like abandoned swimming pools, concrete city drainages, stairs with handrails, etc.

I find myself somewhat in the middle. Am I a better person when I drive to Little Rock to sit in a large dark building and watch a movie that required hauling heavy equipment all over the world into fragile environments, or when I watch this same movie at home, and later buy some of the unnecessary products that were burned into my subconscious during the commercials? Or am I better when I head down to Rockport to play? I exist, you exist, we consume. Try to consume less, but please, enough with the comparisons that imply your choices are better or somehow more moral than my choices.

I am fascinated with the subject Katie is writing about, and that was the topic of the Paddler Magazine article, "Baptized in the Froth". For those that haven't seen it, a couple of excerpts: "River-running is more akin to religion than sport." And "The transformation doesn't appear to be happening in whitewater play parks..." This sums up why David (and I) will drive one hour to a play park, but many hours to get to a river.

Does this make play parks bad? No - they still provide skills training, some different types of satisfaction like a chance to socialize with others that love the same sport, they allow us to bring others up to speed faster so they can join us on the rivers we love the most, and they help keep our own skills sharper, thus maximizing the enjoyment of future river outings. For most of us, a play park will never substitute for a real river, but when you’re really hungry, it doesn’t have to be caviar every time; sardines will help you survive, too.
Trash: Get a little every time you go!

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Re: Study on white water parks for Louisiana

Post by Fish » Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:53 pm

I'd d*mn sure rather go to a wild creek than a play park anytime. I don't even get religious about play runs, let alone water parks - wilderness creeks are my church and I'm a paddlesnake handler, baby!

But we lack water in the creeks and rivers for most of the year... So, I'd rather drive to a real creek out East or West, but that can't happen often either, and, as has been pointed out, it's certainly not any better for the environment than going to a local play park. And if I can't paddle often, I don't keep myself tuned up enough to run creeks here when they do come up. So where do I go to paddle from July to November so I can paddle the rest of the year? A catch 22.

So what's left to do? PLAY BOATBALL!

- Fish :beer:

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Re: Study on white water parks for Louisiana

Post by sugarmtngal » Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:00 am

Climbers upset balance also, i.e. The Precipious was closed to climbers up in Maine due to the bird disturbance by human hand.
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Re: Study on white water parks for Louisiana

Post by KAYAKN » Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:24 am

I would have to agree with Cowper about her study being interesting. Thats the only reason i posted it for her. I think she needs iformation from the paddling community and not everyones negative beliefes. I invited her to come and take a peak at the message board to see what goes on. I only hope we havent scared the crap out of her with all the ranting. I just wonder if everyones thoughts would be more positive if we had running rivers to paddle?

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Re: Study on white water parks for Louisiana

Post by Trismegistus » Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:01 am

I just wonder if everyones thoughts would be more positive if we had running rivers to paddle?

No. If we'd had rivers to run then the project is all folly.

And a little debate -- even if deemed "negative" is good. Folks that are only looking for agreement and support and wish to blind themselves to discordant viewpoints best not come traipsing through here. :twisted:

KAYAKN

Post by KAYAKN » Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:24 am

Im done

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Re: Study on white water parks for Louisiana

Post by Trismegistus » Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:59 pm

"Not getting anywhere so i'll delete the dang thing"

Kinda like grabbin' yer toys and runnin' home to mommy... :poke:

But seriously -- with some 500 hits in less than 72 hours I'd consider this both an active and interesting thread. You did good!! :clap: Yes, we -- or should I say "I"-- ran astray a bit but I'd bet if you'd just allow the thread to ride you'd had found that we would have eventually come back full circle.

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